The month of November is nearly at an end and although I have kept up with and finished the reading for The Return of the King I have yet to engage in any of the conversation about the book. And that is a tragedy that simply cannot be born. So over the course of the next few days I will endeavor to get up to speed.
I heartily invite you to participate in the discussion whether you read this along with us this month or simply know the story from the book and/or film.
The questions for the first round of discussion were provided by Clint at Geeky Daddy.
1.With the company that went with Aragorn through the Paths of Death. Would you have volunteered knowing it may be curse and ghosts haunting the paths?
Eowyn mentions at one point in the story that despite the potential dangers, Aragorn’s friends go with him because they love him. This parallels the events early on in The Fellowship of the Ring where Frodo’s companions, exposed to some idea of the danger that may await them because of their experience with the Black Riders, choose without wavering to journey with Frodo to whatever end.
Sitting in my leather chair sipping an ice cold Pepsi in a comfortable, climate controlled environment I would have to say that the idea of traversing through any of the perilous paths that our intrepid heroes trod would not be appealing. But if I can divorce myself from my present environs and imagine myself in the place of these characters, then I would certainly see myself following Aragorn for the very same reason Legolas and Gimli did, despite their concerns/fears. I think (or I hope) we all have people in our lives that inspire that kind of devotion and hopefully we also inspire that kind of devotion in others. At the very least it is something we should strive for.
If I did go I imagine I would be more like the terrified Gimli than the fearless Legolas once on the path.
2.What were your thoughts of Merry and Pippin in the preparation to the Battle of Gondor. It seemed that each ruler just thought that each hobbit could not be a contribution to the battle.
I found Tolkien’s handling of that to be very authentic. Despite the fortitude and bravery that both Merry and Pippen had shown it would not at all be surprising for the leaders of men to see these small, child-sized people as ones who would need protecting, not ones who could be a valuable contributor in battle. It would have been less realistic to me had Denethor or Theoden easily accepted Pippen and Merry as equals to the soldiers under their command. I also think it set up a more interesting story with both characters in that they had to continue to prove both to themselves and to others that they were more than merely characters who liked a leisurely style of life.
As far as Theoden goes, I never feel like his dismissal of Merry is condescending. I feel that he genuinely cares for Merry and understands and empathizes with his desire to go to war. But he also knows his duty is to his soldiers and honestly believes Merry will be a burden and distraction that he cannot bear. I also feel that he genuinely believes that his unwillingness to let Merry or Eowyn go to war is because he loves them and believes he is doing right by them.
I had never thought after my first exposure to Tolkien with The Fellowship of the Ring film that I would come to look on the hobbits as fondly as I did characters like Aragorn, but over time that is exactly what has happened, primarily because of the journey Tolkien took all of the hobbits on and the way in which he allowed these characters to come into their own, to grow and to mature into leaders.
3.Did you think that the preparations to the Battle sparked your interest and all or did you find that the flow was bogged down a bit?
This is my second time through the trilogy in its entirety and I have yet to have an experience where I feel the story bogs down. Tolkien does an admirable job of balancing moments of action with moments of character development, and it is in those quieter moments where we really get to know and love these characters the most. We get to see their hopes and fears, their motivations and what they aspire to. And I think Tolkien does a great job of slowly building tension in between the bigger moments of his story, so that the reader is never entirely relaxed and is just waiting for that other shoe to drop.
4. I thought that it was great that both Eowyn and Merry made it to the Battlefield. Yet against orders of the King and made a huge contributions. What did you think both of them doing this and would you have done this if it was you?
Although I strongly believe in the idea of authority and that there needs to be obedience and duty on some level to make a society work, I also think there are times and places when a person has to and is compelled to break with tradition and do what they know is the right thing to do. I liked seeing both Eowyn and Merry do this and was thrilled in the way in which this tied into Tolkien’s idea that “no man” could kill the Witch King. So no man did, instead a stab from a hobbit and a killing blow from a woman took care of the job. You’ve got to love that!
It can be successfully argued that Tolkien didn’t allow much place in his tales of Middle-earth for women, certainly not outside of traditional gender roles. And yet if you really pay attention to Eowyn’s story you see that he knocked this one out of the park. He created in Eowyn a character with strength and passion who desired the glory of battle and was not afraid to admit that this is what she wanted. She did not want to be trapped in a subservient role but instead wanted the opportunity to defend herself and her people in the same manner in which any man could, and when this wasn’t allowed she not only seized her chance but she was able to recognize a kindred spirit in Merry and she was selfless enough to give him the chance to fight for his friends as well.
I just love their story line.
5. What do you think of Denethor’s rash decision to send Faramir to hold Western Osgiliath against the hosts of the Enemy that outnumbered their own greatly?
Tolkien never ceases to surprise me, and this return trip through Middle-earth has revealed to me so many things about these books that speak out in the face of criticism and certainly fly in the face of any description of these works as typical works of fantasy. They are anything but.
It surprises and saddens me how openly hostile Denethor is towards Faramir. He despises Faramir and makes no secret of his preference for Boromir. I wonder sometimes if his sending Faramir was in part because he didn’t want to see Faramir in front of him as this was a reminder to him that his favored son Boromir was dead. It can be interpreted at the end that Denethor did actually love Faramir and I wouldn’t argue with that interpretation, but I also see a lot of selfishness in Denethor’s actions, even at the end when he chooses that he wants to end his and Faramir’s days on a pyre. I can sympathize with Denethor to a degree since he obviously spent long days looking into the palantir and his mind, like Saruman’s, was poisoned by the enemy, but I don’t feel too much sympathy because I believe both Saruman and Denethor had darkness in them already and that this was just magnified by their exposure to the mind of the enemy.
I feel for Faramir. In the end he finds his own glory and peace, but when I think of how his life will be once the dust settles I realize that despite all his victories he will always have to live with the idea of this father who did not love him properly and whose last words and actions towards him were ones of loathing and not of love.
No worries about the timing. Maybe I was able to keep up with the reading and the posting, but I think I’ve had about 5 minutes a week to post on other people’s discussions. I’ll bet this post breathes new life into the entire project, and I won’t feel so bad about commenting so late on everything.
I do love how Eowyn always describes herself as a Shieldmaiden. . . no way she’s gonna sit at home when there’s a war going on!
Eowyn is fantastic. I love her portrayal in the films and I was reminded again reading this just how rich a character she is in Tolkien’s world. She may not have a great deal of “screen time”, but there are no wasted moments with her. Everything has significance.
I’m hoping to get caught up with visiting everyone and posting this week. I’ve missed talking about LOTR.
I’m interested that your attitude to the hobbits has changed with reading the books. I’ve commented before about my disappointment with various aspects of the film versions of LOTR, but the very firast thing that bugged me was that Jackson portrayed Merry and Pippin as buffoons. They were not; they were aristocrats, sons of the great houses of the Shire. And Merry (always my favourite hobbit)planned the whole accompanying Frodo thing in the first place. It is fitting that they both achieve greatness in this book.
Merry and Pippin are a little goofy at the beginning of the films but I don’t think those things are entirely missing from what Tolkien wrote about them. I do think the films increased that because of the feeling of a need to have some light moments in very dark films, but as the films progressed, particularly mid-way through Two Towers we see both Merry and Pippin become much more serious and more dignified, if that is the right word, which I think fits in with how Tolkien had these characters grow. I’m also not sure how you would have projected the growth of the characters in the films without them having been a bit silly and carefree to begin with.
My attitude changed more because I think even though I liked them in the films and the first time I read the books I am more drawn to Aragorn as a heroic figure. But spending time with the hobbits in the books this time out they really became my favorite focus. I think I was more aware of the nuances of their characters and the real growth that Tolkien achieved with them over the course of their adventure. I certainly see why people say they get different things out of these books each time they read them. I certainly have. 🙂
No one can call you a quitter. And this works out perfectly for me since I am behind in reading this novel. I just finished part one for this discussion last night. I can’t promise that I will finish the second part that quickly so I may have to read the remaining of your posts after I finish the novel.
I find it interesting that you were fonder of Aragorn than the hobbits after viewing the movie. I liked the hobbits more, however I read the books first before the movies. I agree with Morag and was annoyed that Merry and Pippin were portrayed as buffoons.
I’m an admitted romantic, and given that Aragorn is really the main character with any sort of love interest in the films, it wasn’t surprising to me that he was the character that caught my eye. And he is still my favorite. He’s got the cool sword, the extra long life, a passionate love, etc. Aragorn is just too cool.
As I mentioned before, I don’t think the buffoonery is way off base. A little, but not a lot, in the films. There are certainly scenes in the films that are directly from the book, including their horseplay regarding the water when they are with Treebeard and the silliness and cockiness in their interactions with the rest of the fellowship when they show up at Isengard. Really if you watch the extended editions they are only really goofy during the first third of the trilogy and are pretty serious the rest of the time so again I don’t see it as wildly out of character from the books.
You a romantic! Never would have guessed 🙂 After I finish the last novel I’ll have to check out the movies again and see if Jackson was off with his portrayal of Merry and Pippin. How’s that for an excuse? I’m still kicking myself for not see the re-release in the theater that you recently attended.
I certainly don’t want to suggest that you or the others who feel this way are wrong or that Jackson was spot on with his portrayal as I do think there were some liberties taken, but I do know that one of the three main writers, Philippa, is a HUGE fan and that they all did endeavor as much as possible to stay true to Tolkien and they also talked in the interviews about needing to establish some light-heartedness early to sustain the audience through all the dark times that were to come. I think the seeds of Merry and Pippen being more playful are there in Tolkien, especially as they themselves are not hobbits who have “come of age”. I don’t think it reads as clownish in Tolkien, but then I also don’t think the goofy stuff in the films goes on and on, I see it waning and then largely disappearing throughout the course of The Two Towers.
I guess the best way for me to say it is that their goofy nature didn’t bother me because I think it is at least partially in the spirit of Tolkien but more importantly because it serves as a starting point from which the characters of Merry and Pippen grew in the film. Had they been more serious starting out I don’t think there would have been any emotional investment in them as the circumstances they encountered caused them to “grow up” and become more serious.
I liked the way the hobbits were portrayed in the film – I know there was a certain comedy element to some of their scenes but there was also this element to some of Gimli and Legolas’ scenes – and I think some of it was quite true to the novel. I think it helps you to have little humour in the midst of an otherwise overwhelming situation. I’m not trying to belittle the hobbits because at the end of the day they were invaluable, but, they did have some comedy moments – think of Sam, for example, he made me laugh more often than not.
Lynn 😀
I was talking LOTR with a friend last night who had watched the Extended Editions for the first time last weekend and he was surprised to find out how many things that he just assumed was “hollywood” were actually drawn from the books, like the competition between Legolas and Gimli.
I don’t mind the comedic moments with the hobbits either because I think that also lends itself to the story’s authenticity. All of the races no doubt have their own sense of humor and it certainly would not be out of character for a race that loves simple pleasures, including smoking pipes and drinking ale, to have a pretty riotous sense of humor. And Merry and Pippen especially are not “of age”. They are essentially teenagers in hobbit years and their playful goofiness is again, in my opinion, very fitting.
I still have yet to read LOTR. I’ll need to rectify that at some point.