I have to admit that I was initially skeptical when I first heard that a ‘new’ work was being published by J.R.R. Tolkien. I envisioned a book written containing a minimal influence of the master, cobbled together in order to make a buck. Thankfully my cynicism was short lived. It only took a bit of thought to dismiss that as ludicrous. Christopher Tolkien has been nothing but a devoted son to his father in the years since his death, working tirelessly to bring forth the massive works of his father that would otherwise not have seen the light of day. I merely had to think back to how easily I lost myself in The Silmarillion to recall just how much Christopher Tolkien has influenced my love of the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.
In the introduction to The Children of Hurin Christopher Tolkien quotes a passage from a letter his father wrote in 1951 stating, “once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story – the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths…I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched.” Despite leaving many works unfinished, over the course of a long life of writing I believe J.R.R. Tolkien went a long way towards accomplishing that very goal.
In the earliest days of his writing career, in the trenches of WWI, J.R.R. Tolkien began many of the tales of the Elder days that would eventually make up the stories of the First Age of Middle-earth told in The Silmarillion. One such tale was that of Hurin, the man who dared to defy the first Dark Lord, Morgoth, to his face. The lives of Hurin, his wife Morwen, his son Turin and his daughter Nienor are touched on in The Silmarillion. This then, The Children of Hurin, is the more detailed unfolding of the curse of Morgoth upon the lives of the offspring of Hurin.
By now it should be evident that The Children of Hurin is no tale of happiness and triumph, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. No, The Children of Hurin is a tragedy in the grandest sense, no doubt influenced (as were all of J.R.R. Tolkien’s works) by the epic poems and stories that fueled Tolkien’s love of language from an early age. As a piece of the rich history that is Middle-earth, this story is deliciously tragic. The whole of the stories of Middle-earth, from the creation of the world up through the defeat of the Dark Lord Sauron, is really one of both triumph and tragedy. Like our own true history, victories both great and small often come from those who are less than perfect…those whose very lives are tragedies despite moments of heroic glory. Such is the case of Turin Turambar. It is this common bond that we share with the characters of Middle-earth that makes this sad tale such an enjoyable read. All along the way Turin Turambar and others of the house of Húrin have opportunities to apparently cast aside the doom that overshadows them from the curse of Morgoth. But like any good tragedy, they simply cannot escape their fate. In the end The Children of Hurin is a welcome addition to the lore of Middle-earth.
It is evident upon picking up a copy of The Children of Hurin that this book was a labor of love. It is beautiful in every way. The art of Alan Lee included in the book is amazing. In addition the glorious cover, there are 8 color plates of new watercolor paintings that Alan Lee created especially for this book as well as 25 pencil illustrations. As much as I love the painted works of Alan Lee, it is his pencil illustrations that always make me stare in wonder. His is an unmatched talent and the the illustrations beginning each chapter of The Children of Hurin simply must be seen. In addition to the main tale, there is a preface in which Christopher Tolkien gives a very interesting history of the story, an introduction in which an overview of the First Age of the world is given, notes on pronunciation, 3 genealogies, two appendices (The Evolution of the Great Tales and The Composition of the Text), a list of names, and a new, fold-out map of the world of this age. It is a Lord of the Rings geek’s dream.
Will everyone like The Children of Hurin? I don’t think so. If you are not a fan of melancholy tragedies or a lover of all the minutiae of Middle-earth then this probably is not the book for you. If, however,The Silmarillion filled you with a profound sense of wonder, as it did me, then I highly recommend this book. It was such a joy to ‘hear’ the voice of J.R.R. Tolkien once again. It only took the first few pages of the story itself to bring a satisfying smile to my face, for here was the master at work again. I am so thankful for the dedication of Christopher Tolkien (who, I discovered, I share a birthday with) to bring us this work. It is indeed tragic, but richly so.
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For those who are interested, there are some great wallpapers of Alan Lee’s art from The Children of Hurin located here, including one with the book cover image.
Ooh you just had to do it didn’t you?! I was being all restrained, leaving my copy on the shelf and working through the other books on my list…Now I’m sorely tempted to just go and jump straight into it.
Seriously – great review, I can’t wait to read the book. I did flip through and peek at the illustrations when my copy arrived – truly stunning.
I share a birthday with J. R. R. Tolkien. Or shared.
Great review indeed. Everything Middle-Earth related fills me with awe, and I love tragic tales, so I definitely think this is a book for me.
And I can’t wait to see Alan Lee’s illustrations.
I glanced at a copy at work the day it came out and was so moved by Alan Lee’s incredible illustrations. What a genius of an artist. I may have to get a copy of the book for my husband’s upcoming birthday. I’m sure he’ll let me read it first! 🙂
I second Elaine’s thought…you just had to do it :p Great review! I was saving this book until I finished reading all of my challenge books, but now I just may have to jump right into it. Sounds great. I too took a sneak peek at Lee’s illustrations and they blow me away. Great stuff. I’m even more excited about reading this one now!
I couldn’t wait, I was trying to get this one in before anyone else did so that I would not have to just skim any reviews from you guys/girls when you get to reading it. I look forward to seeing what you all think of it when you’re done.
I finished John Scalzi’s latest book for my Estella’s Revenge review this weekend as well and am well into another book on my challenge list so I’m trying to be good now and stay on track! 😉
I almost bought this yesterday, but decided I wanted to hear what other bloggers thought about it as I already had a stack I was buying… and now I’m extremely tempted to get it right now. Hopefully I can put off the temptation for another couple of weeks. But you’ve definitely made me want to read it.
I’m relieved to hear that Christopher followed in his worthy father’s steps; not every child of a famous parent can do so with alacrity.
Well, it’s back to the bookstore for me again! Why didn’t I just pick it up when I was there last week? Great review! It’s a must-read now.
Just to clarify, Bellezza, this book is essentially all J.R.R. Tolkien. It was just edited together with minor work to form a complete story from the many manuscripts and fragments of Tolkien’s work on this tale. That is one of the things I admire so much about Christopher Tolkien is that he understands the need for the integrity of his father’s work. Its not about him, it is about getting the rest of his father’s immense volume of work out to the fans in a way that is worthy of his father’s legacy. Very cool.
I also can’t wait to purchase and read this book as soon as I’m done with my challenge reading. I had to stop by the bookstore and flip through a copy. The Alan Lee sketchs are AMAZING.
I plan to pick this book up next time I order books from amazon. Especially after reading positive reviews! It’s been a while since I read Tolkien.
Don’t forget to use the Endicott Studio link to Amazon to get some money to the help the kiddos! 😉
I have to admit that I will probably never get around to reading this, but you have such a wonderful way of writing a review that it makes it hard to resist!
The black-and-white illustrations are more to my taste than the color plates. Some of the sketches are very nice. Still, the color illustrations add a lot to the presentation of the story. They lend an air of mystery and magic.
I really enjoyed reading this review, which sends readers to the book who will enjoy it, while warning some others off–so much better than a thumbs up or down.
I plan to go the book store this weekend and pick it up, among others. “The Silmarillion” is my absolute favourite Tolkien work, and the story of the Hurin family my favourite of all the pre-Third Age tales. (I must say I preferred the fuller version in “Unfinished Tales”.)
So, I’m expecting this to be a treat!
It will be a treat for you, Imani. It is so cool to have someone else admit that The Silmarillion is their favorite as it is mine too. I cannot underestimate the impact the movies had on possibly making me feel that way. While I love the other Tolkien books, the richness of The Silmarillion really does it for me!
hi carl. i must admit, i am rather sceptical about this book, but am very interested in it!
can you clarify for me exactly what christopher tolkien’s involvement was. when you say it is “edited together with minor work”, do you mean he just assembled tolkien’s writings? has he written bridges (in the novel’s narrative voice) connecting sections of the story? what is the “minor work” that he’s done and how minor is this work?
i think i’m particularly cautious because the book came out with very little fanfare – which is hugely surprising considering what tolkien’s current market value must be. also, there has been very little explanation as to where its come from and how its come to light – which is why i was sceptical. and then, on top of that, its just presented to us as a fait accompli – “oh, here you go, the latest tolkien book!” as if he’s just written it yesterday.
so, yeah, i guess its the publicity campaign that unnerves me. i think they’ve made a bit of a cock-up of it.
thanks!
I just finished this today, and I am torn. I DO love Tolkein, though I’ve never reveled in Middle Earth minutiae as you put it, I have read all of the major works concerning Middle Earth. You are right that it is very true to Tolkein’s style and vision, and it read with tempo as though it really wanted to BE an Epic poem. But try as I might–the STORY disappointed me. I think I just rebel internally at the idea of inescapable fate, or maybe I just can’t stomach the idea of existance without hope which is what Turin seemed to be. I WANTED to love it, but I didn’t. I think that makes me saddest of all. LOOK! i just wrote my review in your comments LOL!
Good review! I didn’t mind the hopelessness of it as I knew of all these fates anyway from reading The Silmarillion. I think the stories like this one, balanced with the ones of those who actually triumphed, make the whole of Lord of the Rings that much more hopeful and powerful at the end and that is why I enjoyed this one. I can live with a good tragedy as part of the foundational tales for Tolkien’s universe.
JP, Christopher Tolkien’s involvement was both monumental and minimal, if that makes any sense. He explains in much detail in the book what his involvement was in regards to actual writing and it was almost nothing. The majority of this story was already written in several different parts and alot of the editing work was taking parts of the story that were written in more than one way and then working those sections together. This is almost entirely a true J.R.R. Tolkien book…probably 99%.
As far as fanfare goes, I actually thought they did quite a bit of marketing for it considering that book marketing (unless it is the Harry Potter books) doesn’t really hit the front pages of the news. I heard about and read about the book before it came out and when I went back and did some research on it I found all kinds of links that had been up for some time regarding the publishing of the book. I actually took it as a positive sign that they didn’t publish this during the movie craze a few years back and actually waited for it to come out. I would suspect that the tragic nature of this tale…it is no happy story…was also one of the reasons for not going wild with marketing. This is a book for true Tolkien lovers, not for the average “I liked the movies” Lord of the Rings fan. It is dark, at times disturbing, and very tragic. I loved it, but again I read it and take it in the context of the whole Tolkien universe. I truly believe that if you liked The Silmarillion that you will like this. It is different from Sil in that it is more of a narrative story than a history book, but it has that same feel to it.
thanks! that answers my question and i must say it has eradicated any of the doubts i had about the book.
i am very glad that chris tolkien wrote so little of the book. but, as you say, that of course doesn’t mean that his involvement was minimal. it must’ve been a monumental task to edit it together!
i enjoyed the silmarillion and would definitely now like to read the children of hurin – although, i am not the biggest fan of tragedies (they make me very sad…!).
As I read this book I kept in mind the fact that this was just one small portion of a huge history of middle-earth that ends, at least as far as we know, with a glorious victory. What I loved so much as I read through The Silmarillion for the first time was that having the knowledge of how it all ends wove a thread of hope throughout the narrative. Like true history there are victories and defeats, good decisions and poor ones, good people and bad…I felt like Tolkien captured all that in his works. This is no different. It is tragic, but it is so beautifully written. It is vintage Tolkien. You will be glad for having read it.
Just out of curiousity, what are your thoughts on the films.
thats a good way of seeing it i think – as a part of a bigger narrative that ends positively. i think i remember reading the silmarillion with a similar perspective which gave it added meaning.
my thoughts on the films…? oh dear. well, they’re very unpopular… i hate being a killjoy, but the second and third ones leave me a little bit cool… the first one i like very much indeed.
i like the 2nd and 3rd ones enough. as a spectacle there is no argument and i really enjoyed seeing what i had read come to life on screen. i had always dreamed of seeing it on screen but never thought it would happen. so for that they’re great to watch.
but as films in their own right…? i don’t know… theres something not right there for me…
i must add that i am totally alone in this among my friends and i respect the opinions of others who like the 2nd and 3rd ones. obviously, the books are large and very hard to fit into 3 films (albeit very long ones) and one simply has to give them licence for not completely covering what transpires in the books.
the 1st one doesn’t have everything in it, of course, but i was enthralled. it must be one of my favourite movies! and yet, when it comes to the 2nd and 3rd i feel the story just starts to get too big for jackson. perhaps the books become that little bit too complicated to translate onto the screen?
with the 1st i felt everything made sense and yet, even having read the books twice i felt myself getting confused at times with what was going on in the 2nd and 3rd. things just seemed to happen without enough justification… at times it felt like the highlights of the book put on screen, and not the story itself. lalso, the battle scenes seemed a bit senseless at times and though i’m now ex-army general, some of the tactics seemed rather daft.
this isn’t really anything jackson has done wrong, i think the problem is in the weight of the task. and so, perhaps i’m being to critical…
there is also every chance that i’m simply rebelling…! that wouldn’t surprise me. i do find it annoying when something becomes a bit untouchable, be it james joyce’s ulysses, alan moore’s watchmen or the lord of the rings films. but then, as i said, i really love the first one.
I preface the following comments with the knowledge that I never read one word of LOTR before the films came out. Stardust will be my first experience with a movie made from a book that I cherish dearly, and to be honest, I’m not looking forward to what that experience may be like for me.
I don’t quite understand your statement “well, they’re very unpopular”. I assume this means for you personally considering the worldwide financial and critical success they garnered.
I perfectly respect someone not liking the films to some degree, especially die hard fans of the novels. For me, I see them as nearly perfect from both a film making standpoint and from the standpoint of interpreting the stories in a way that has to be done for film.
I am of course referring solely to the extended versions which, except in theatres, are the only ones I ever watch. I have watched the extras on each ext. edition more times than I’ve watched the films, and I’ve watched those MANY times. I just love them. They tell the most moving, uplifting, ‘real’ story…(which I’m sure is silly to say about a fantasy film). I think the passion and skill that went into each film echoes the passion and skill that Tolkien brought to his universe. Knowing just how passionate they all were from the hours of footage in the extras adds so much to watching the films.
I know the critics thought Return had too many endings, etc. I say ‘bah, humbug’. It had to be that way to satisfy the stories Tolkien wrote. While Fellowship is the better film from the standpoint of it being a more complete film all on its own, I like Two Towers and Return of the King better. I think each one builds upon itself so well and I felt like it stayed very well focused as it went on, especially considering the fact that the Fellowship has to break up so much.
I’m sure you have, but if you haven’t seen all of the extras on the extended editions, especially the early chapters in each one in which they talk about what they had to do to translate Tolkien’s works to the screen from a storytelling perspective, I highly recommend it. I loved the films before I saw that, but I loved them exponentially more afterwards because I now appreciate the difficulties and the passion in trying to make it all right, in trying to honor Tolkien.
I think the entire trilogy is the most amazing cinematic achievement and I wonder very strongly if anything like it will be accomplished again in my lifetime. The films have turned me into a Tolkien fanatic. Each year I buy or receive as gifts LOTR stuff, including several books about Tolkien, etc. I treasure each and every one as I grow more and more amazed at the scope of his vision the more I learn about him.
Again, this is all coming from someone who holds Peter Jackson in the highest esteem, because I love each and every minute of each and every film. Obviously I’m not objective! 🙂 But I am opinionated! 😉
Actually, I think I gave all the films a very fair assessment, but we are all objective in our own eyes, aren’t we? Ha!
I am enjoying conversing with you about this stuff. I need to pull Janet in on these conversations as well. She’s a huge LOTR fan!
haha…! no, i meant my thoughts on the LOTR films are very unpopular.
yeah! its cool to talk to you about this too! what’s janet’s take on the films? did she read the books beforehand?
i actually haven’t seen the extended versions. with all the hype and my beforesaid unpopular views i wanted to wait till the hype died down a bit so that i could watch them and try to get the most out of them. are there extended/deleted scenes? do they enhance the films?
i assume that a part of the extended versions that you refer to – that makes you like the films more – is the behind the scenes/making of stuff? i can very well believe that the crew worked incredibly hard making the film. the word “incredibly” is probably an understatement. i have seen one or two documentaries on the filming of the movies and i have much admiration for those people! the love, care, attention and the blood and guts (i’m thinking of the filming of helm’s deep) they put into the film is amazing. i’m also sure watching that will make the film rise in my estimation – but then a part of me resists watching it just for that reason. if you’re already a fan of something, then seeing something like that and it making you love the film more is fine – but for that to be what makes you love it in the first place…?
i’m sure i’ll be moved by seeing the behind the scenes stuff, but i don’t want to be moved to the degree that makes it move up in my estimation, making me love them. not for that. i’d want to love them for what they are on screen first and foremost (its really a very small point i’m trying to make… i didn’t really need to explain it in that much detail..!). but let me just reiterate – i totally understand and relate to how your experience of watching the behind the scenes stuff makes you love it more. i’d feel exactly the same way if it was a film that i loved!
a factor in all this is could be the fact that i read it beforehand…
i think watching a film based upon a book is… well, there is always that danger that you may be dissatisfied with what you see… for obvious reasons. i often try and read the book before i see the film (try!) and i’m starting to wonder why… why set yourself up for what could be a dissapointment?
and yet i should know better. i did drama at university and learned to develop a quite mercenary attitude to books as source material. i am the first to argue that one should view films as separate artforms from their source material. but there are still times when i am disatisfied by the film. i’m talking generally here, but even if one finds oneself enjoying a film (of which you have read the book), there is often that voice in your head “they left that bit out” “thats different” “they changed that!”. there are films though, wherein one either forgets the book entirely or one is very pleased with what one sees…
i’m interested as to why you prefer the 2nd and 3rd films to the first? is it because they are darker? more dramatic?
when you say things like “I think the entire trilogy is the most amazing cinematic achievement and I wonder very strongly if anything like it will be accomplished again in my lifetime.” you really make me think… because, the thing is, i can’t disagree with you there. so whats my problem? i don’t know…
also, i don’t feel your views are opinionated at all. you can see the other side of the argument and you have reasons for what you say… more than that we can’t do!
i’m very glad to hear that its made you love tolkien though. that is a wonderful thing about the film! i guess you know he lived in oxford? (and was born in south africa!). there’s a pub near where i live where he used to go to. i mean, can you believe that! walking down the street and seeing that! sititing and drinking in the pub…! they even know where he used to sit and write sometimes. there are other haunts of his that are known, but i can’t remember off the top of my head.
i’ll have to take some photos for you!
Janet (Fond of Snape…you can find the site in my links) is a long-time fan of the LOTR books and I believe she really enjoyed the films. I know whenever LOTR talk is going on I try to get her involved because she is a fan.
Each extended version adds a significant amount of new material to the films that, in my opinion, enhance them tremendously. Hazarding a guess, I think the shortest of the three contains and extra 45 minutes of material. Okay, this is the internet. I don’t have to hazard a guess: Fellowship is 30 minutes longer, Two Towers is 43 minutes longer, and Return is 50 minutes longer. Some examples: Fellowship includes the scene where they get their gifts from Galadriel. It is a great scene which makes the rope and the light of Erendil (forgive my spelling if this is wrong) make more sense in TT and ROTK. In Two Towers one of the scenes is a better explanation of Aragorns race and true age. In Return you see the death of Saruman (which is great to see but could be a real bone of contention too as this is the one scene that differs more in its film execution than it does in the book…for obvious film reasons, but could still bother you).
I would never go back to watching the theatrical versions. For the impatient these might be too long, but for someone like me and my family, who love every minute of these films and want them to never end, each extra minute is a joy.
I personally think you should watch all the extras and not worry about whether or not they effect your thoughts on the film. If you are not happy with the films I doubt they will radically change your mind. If you are, however, interested at all in the film making process and especially in trying to adapt a celebrated work of fiction, then these are sooo worth watching. I got such an education watching them. The extras in each film are broken down the same. They have chapters on Tolkien the man, then on adapting the story to its screenplay form, then on how they created costumes, miniatures, bigatures (large scale scene models), the creatures, etc. On the second extras disk of each film (each one has between 5 and 6 hours of documentaries) are docs with the actors and how they interacted with one another (and those are amazing), on the music, on how they created certain sound effects, on each the premieres, etc.
I cannot stress enough how wonderful they are. At the very least you should watch the parts on Tolkien for each one as they have many great Tolkien experts on who are fascinating to listen to and you should watch the docs on how painful and necessary it was from a film perspective to have to change some things. So fascinating. On the Return of the King disk there is a section on what they did with all the horses after filming which is an uplifting tear-jerker, and another emotional one is where they showcase a 16 year old New Zealand filmmaker who died of cancer…they had him on the set and the song Into the West was inspired by their relationship with him as well as Tolkien’s words. Wow, it leaves us a mess every time we watch it.
I’m an advocate for reading the books first, in general. Although that is damn hard to do nowadays when they crank movies out so fast after a book’s release. Ken over at Neth Space made a good point once when he said that books should be allowed to have a life of their own, like the LOTR books, before being adapted to film, if ever. I totally agree. I think the rush to make Harry Potter films, Eragon, etc. detracts from the magic of the books (I haven’t read those but they are good examples). I’m probably old fashioned in that, but there it is.
And I do think one should be able to watch a film for what it is vs. the books, but come one, can any of us really do that for books we are passionate about? Waiting for Stardust is killing me. I just want to get the movie experience over with so I can either enjoy it or hate it but be done with it! I don’t believe, however, that any filmmakers have ever taken the kind of care in translation that PJ’s group did. Each and every one of them (Peter, Fran, Phillipa) were like long lovers of Tolkien’s work and Peter Jackson is an obvious student of film and trying to make those work together was excrutiating. I am so impressed with what they did. And while even I may not love all the changes, I understand them and to me it is important to have that info to make a critical analysis of the film now that one has the ability to do that.
“so whats my problem?” You don’t have a problem, it is okay not to love, or even like, something that everyone else does or that you think everyone else does. First, I think there are an incredible number of people who feel the same way you do. Second, you are passionate about the books and to me that is all that really matters.
That being said, if we were talking about say, the movie Armageddon (which I, along with one of my good friends, hate and other good friends love and watch every time it comes on tv) I would just let it go and chalk it up to ‘we all like different things’. Since we are talking about LOTR and because I believe that it is a film made by film experts and because of the passion poured into it (every single prop down to the smallest thing was created especially for this film, they spent years developing the symbolism, color schemes, material, etc of the various races of men, elves, etc…I could go on and on) then I am more want to argue that a person should go into them open minded and educated about more than just ‘this is a film version of J.R.R. Tolkien’s masterpiece’.
There are few things in life that I push with great passion, and the works of Neil Gaiman and the LOTR books and films, are some of those things. But you have to always filter what I say through the knowledge that for some unfathomable reason I, a self-proclaimed fantasty/sci fi fan, had never read LOTR before the movies came out. I knew almost NOTHING about them! And there is no way for me to be able to honestly and objectively put myself in the shoes of someone who was passionate about these stories before the films were released. It is impossible.
I didn’t like Two Towers or Return because they were darker…I think I simply like each film better than the last because of the progression of the story. Each gets successively more intense and more climactic that I cannot help but liking them better. Plus Aragorn is my favorite character and I just love watching his story progress. I fully believe from a filmmaking standpoint that Fellowship was the best, should have won the Oscar. I think it is one of the most complete and perfect films ever made. It alone is almost a self-contained story (because of the forming of the fellowship and their time together). It is such a powerful movie. When I say I like 2 and 3 better you must understand that it is like the difference between saying I like chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream better than cookies and cream. There is an almost imperceptible difference between my likes for them when it comes down to it. I know I wasn’t clear on that before.
I am very envious of you having that close of a physical connection to Tolkien! That is awesome. I would be at that pub all the time (and not because I am a heavy drinker). But lifting a pint of ale in a place where Tolkien sat, wrote, dreamed up this incredible mythology…wow! I would love it if you took some pics. I’d post about them here on the site for sure!
I’ll try not to bug you too much about watching the extended editions or the extras…I’ll try. I would describe the way you feel about them not wanting to change your estimation of the films as an idiosyncracy. I have some myself and they cause my friends to shake their heads in wonder and pity. One is that if something gets wildly popular before I am into it I have a tendency to want to push against it. I’ve never read Da Vinci code or the Harry Potter books for that very reason. It makes no sense, but my heart is almost turned to stone as far as desire to be a part of that phenomenon. It is stupid. I know people who feel the same way about Star Wars and I’m alway blown away by their stubborness, but then I do the EXACT SAME THING! It is bizarre and silly, but there it is. And please don’t think I am calling you bizarre or silly, I’m only referring to me. I only point this out to say that I understand what you were trying to say…and still desperately want you to watch that stuff. LOL!!!
Anyway, I’ve prattled on long enough and am not going back to check for spelling or grammatical errors in this book. Its back to you! 😉
JP, don’t skip the last book of a comment I left for you right above this one, but I wanted to share some other thoughts on the extras on the ext. edition dvd’s.
When I was in high school I participated in every play, every musical group, etc. that I could. I loved performing. I loved the camaraderie of learning a production, or a musical piece, together with a group and performing that. During those times of rehearsal and performing I found that this very divergent group of 9th-12th grade kids would come together and form great bonds of friendship. It was amazing. I was always a bit sad when one would end and we’d all fall back into our normal routines, normal social circles, etc. I have taken the memories of those times into my adult life and have always looked at Broadway musicals, plays and films with my own personal remembrance of how it was to work on something with a group.
The extras on the LOTR disks give one that feeling. You see these actors come together, some who had read and loved the books since their childhood and others who just discovered the wonder of them in being chosen for the movies. They come together and just gel and they spend over a year together in New Zealand for principal photography. We get the chance to sort of live vicariously through them during these documentaries and it is a very bittersweet thing to do, for while you see how close they all get, you and they know it must end and they will go their separate ways. It really is a parallel of the breaking of the Fellowship. It is amazing to experience that.
I don’t know you well, so I can only speak for me, but I have always been fascinated with art, with creating things, etc. I’ve done some of that my entire life though very little…I neglect it alot, actually…but when I watch the people who did the conceptual artwork, who did the actual craftsmenship of the props, the sets, the costumes, etc. I also get to live vicariously through them. I find the process of making the movies even more moving that I do the films themselves, and I find the films life-changing, really!
The music in LOTR is so beautiful and I love to see how Howard Shore crafted the music to fit Tolkien’s work. That part of the dvd’s is great.
They really are a fantasy geek and film geek’s dream to watch. You learn so very much in watching them. I also learned so much about Tolkien the man, himself. I discovered several Tolkien ‘authorities’ on the dvd’s whose books I have since picked up because I like listening to them talk about Tolkien so much.
Anyway, all this stuff is just rushing through my head and I wanted to get it all out.
Hello Jean Pierre! Carl told me to pop over because you guys were having a great LOTR discussion. I’m someone who was turned onto reading fantasy books because I read The Hobbit and LOTR books in the seventh grade. They turned me onto reading like no other books had before. Now by the time the movies came out I hadn’t read them for 20 years so I was able to enjoy the films because I had forgotten a lot of the specifics and I just felt that Jackson and Co. truly had captured the spirit of the novels as far as I could remember.
I would truly recommend watching the extended editions of all 3 films. After watching the theatrical versions of the films I went back and read the books again and when you watch the Exteneded editions you will find a lot of those smaller moments added into the cuts of the extended films that you were sitting in the theatre wondering at the time how could they leave such and such scene out. So many DVD’s now days advertise extended editions and /or deleted scenes and after you see them you shake your head and go ‘I can see why they cut that out’ or after seeing an extended edition I will ask my wife ‘did you even notice any difference’. Well I can safely say that is not the case with LOTR extended editions, they each add 30 to 45 minutes of real scenes perfectly added into the movies that truly take these films to another level.
I hope you don’t feel like I’m piling on with Carl in trying to get you to watch these editions than for any other reason than I really enjoy your comments on Carl’s blog and I think this could make you enjoy movies 2 and 3 as much as you enjoy number 1.
I also want to add that I agree with your statement about feeling it’s almost better to read a book after the film if you know one is coming out to avoid that let down feeling. Carl and I fear this greatly when it comes to our love of Stardust. It still is hard for me to shake how bad the movie version of the League of Extordinary Gentlemen turned out when I loved the comics so much. Early buzz on Stardust though makes me feel pretty good about it.
One of my other favorite series is supposed to be adapted by HBO for a series, It’s the Song of Fire and Ice series by George RR Martin. If and when it really comes out I’m sure my gut will be churning again to see if they got it right. That is a series that I treasure right up there with LOTR and Gaiman and Vess’s Stardust. Reading it two years ago charged my love of fantasy up another notch in the same way LOTR had an effect on me 20 years ago.
It was good talking with you and even though I hardly ever have a drink please raise a glass to Mr Tolkien for me the next time your that pub. 🙂
Jeff brings up a good point in that though you may still not want to watch the extras you really should watch the ext. editions themselves to make a judgement on whether or not the films stand up by themselves. After all, these are Peter Jackson’s preferred cuts, not the ones dictated by studio execs who want a movie to fit into a nice little box for cookie cutter audiences.
But then, of course, you should watch the extras….HA!!!!
An email to JP (which you can skip over since you read it already…I just figured this had to be preserved here for posterity):
You are falling behind, JP. You have about 4 or 5 long comments to read and offer rebuttal to. 😉
Between you and Quixotical and Annie (who both read LOTR stuff for the challenge), you’ve gotten me all messed up. Being a whim reader and movie watcher by nature, I generally get LOTR fever during the Oct/Nov/Dec period. Most strongly in November, since that is when all the extended editions came out year after year. During those months I have such a jones to read Tolkien stuff. But, that desire has sprung up now, throwing my whole internal seasonal clock out of whack. Were I to stand naked in a deep freeze I might be able to better convince myself that it is now November, but don’t tell that to my insides…they feel all autumnal. Its weird.
Due to this desire I am now reading Tom Shippey’s excellent book Road to Middle-earth and have watched Return of the King and a ton of the extras on all 3 movies all over again, which just reaffirms my resolve that you are cheating yourself of one of the greatest experiences in film if you don’t watch how they created these films. So precious few of us have watched these in comparison to the number of people who have seen the films, and I think they (especially the unknown people) deserve for people to see and appreciate their craftsmanship and passion.
Anyway, I need to end this tome so you can go read the ones Jeff and I left you over there! 😉
in the book i like the scene where galadriel gives them the gifts a lot. i think its the fact that to even receive hospitality from the elves is special and then they get gifts! from an earlyish stage in the novel it clearly establishes for the reader what a special grouping the fellowship and what an important quest they are on. because, as nice as the gifts are, they are not given only out of kindness but are important to give the fellowship an edge and aid their survival!
i also like cate blanchette’s portrayal of her a lot. i didn’t really believe they’d be able to get her right because she is almost celestial in her otherness. you know? she is definitely not human! cate and pj managed to capture both galadriel’s beauty and grace as well as her aura of power.
ooh! and an explanation of aragorn’s age and that stuff…! that’d be cool to see. that is one thing there definitely isn’t enough of. i can see why you’re a fan of viggo in this. he is very good as aragorn!!
it’d be cool to see saruman buy the farm, and i don’t terribly mind if its that different. he’s such a bogey man of the lotr so seeing him die would be cool.
from my responses you can see that the will i / won’t i argument about watching extras is pretty much over! 🙂 i’ll be watching them all right. of course, me being me, i can’t just lend or rent it. nooo… i have to buy it… own it!!! you know, i love the sin city comics and was quite sad not to see it at the cinema, but have i rented the films yet? nooo… i have to own it! haha!
i’m also really interested in the literary aspects of the film. tolkien the man, the story and all that. i love documentaries and stuff. i’m also very anal dvd-extra watcher, much to my wife’s frustration! but yeah, i know i have reservations about the swaying affect of the behind the scenes, but seeing stuff about tolkien himself would be very cool!
also, the stuff to do with the actors’ interaction would be very cool to see…! i can watch that stuff for hours!!! don’t you just love that they all (even ian mckellen!) got those tattoos!?
hmmm… allowing books a little shelf-life of their own before the film… thats not a bad idea…
i don’t envy you with stardust, though! gaiman and stardust being so important to you… at the very least you know that neil himself likes what he sees and is happy with it so far… although, in a way that can make it harder, ’cause if he took the utterly dismissive and in my opinion, rather idiotic and pompous opinion of alan moore then it’d be easier, ’cause then it’d be easier to just ignore it all together – or watch it with low expectations…
as for pj’s artistic integrity and dedication to tolkien and all, i’m in no doubt and (have never been) about that. my reservations relate to his limitations as a film maker – if they can be called limitations from my extremely lofty position as a successful filmaker of exactly zero films! 🙂
for the record – i love armageddon. its a stupid film i know, but i like bruce willis and owen wilson. and i like a good “save the world” story. but i agree, the merits of a film like lotr needs to be argued more than armageddon.
aragorn is a badass, yes! oh yes, he is very cool! in the book i absolutely love the few chapters when we are introduced to him! the way we first know him only as strider and the way he isn’t at all what one would expect from a hero. and yet, he’s supremely capable. but his capableness (?) isn’t trumpeted from rooftops, its just said very quietly, which makes it more real. a very cool and unique hero.
i’m a boromir man myself. i cry everytime i see that bit in the film. i literally die. i love the way he messes up and feels remorse. i like how he means so well, but is weak. he’s such a paradox – like aragorn – in that he is this supreme fighting machine and yet is mentally/emotionally flawed. his true and utter well meaning desperation to help is at once what puts them in peril and yet the very same thing that manages to save some of them when the uruk-hai come.
but he’s tragic and thats what i love most about him. its just so beautiful to me when he realises his mistake and is remorseful. it is the true sign that he is truely good inside, that he is immediately repentful. if he was really corrupted inside wouldn’t it have been so much easier to make an excuse or lie to himself or blame someone else – being from the more unilateral race of men – in comparison to the more diplomatic rohirrim (sp?), you know? even the best of us do that when we’ve made a mistake that we hate to admit we’ve made. we even fool ourselves sometimes in trying so hard not to admit it. like that saying about it taking a bigger man to admit when he’s made a mistake. imagine making a mistake as big as that…?
and yet he immediately repents. i’ve got a lump in my throat right now. i can just see him desperately rushing through the forest…
i definitely think fellowship should’ve won the oscar. its one of those absolute no-brainers…!!! oh well…
i get why you like the other two more. the distinction is very fine, really.
it is very cool to be living in tolkien’s oxford. (and lewis carrol’s and c.s. lewis’) but i see it more as carrol’s and tolkien’s. to know that you’re walking in the streets, going to the pubs he went to… its almost as if the fabric of oxford has absorbed him and his thoughts. you know? like his thoughts are now embedded in that very pub where he went…
by the way, do you actually like ale? i personally don’t, but oxford is quite known for its ales and bitters. i prefer lagers and belgian or german beers.
oh dear – talk about not watching something if it gets popular before you experience it…! i am very bad with regards to that. i’m aware of it and try to ignore it sometimes… for instance, i’ve read two of the harry potters but don’t really like them… however, i wouldn’t be too surprised if i’d loved them had i discovered them early on… and yet, its blatantly stupid. i have a friend who simply refuses to read the lotr. i… well… i am literally at a loss for words. it is just the stupidest, most truly moronic thing i can think of. just because a book is extremely popular (and all the hazards for the out-of-the loop person that come with that) thats no reason to deprive yourself of the experience of one reading one of the best books written.
okay, i got a little carried away to responding to the first june the 23rd post… and its already 9! charlotte, my wife, is starting to look at me with accusations of neglect in her eyes. but tomorrow i won’t be going to work because i have to wait for our new tv to be delivered, so i’ll respond to the second june 23rd post, the later one and jeff’s post tomorrow morning!
I echo your thoughts on Boromir, he is an incredible character and is played incredibly by Sean Bean. That is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie and I love it. Great tragedy. Truly I enjoy every character in the film, but Aragorn is still my favorite.
My wife likes extras well enough, but she is not a total geek about them like I am. That being said, she has watched every minute of these extras with me many times over, they are that good and that entertaining. Yours may end up liking them as well.
Sin City was amazing. I suggest the bigger DVD set as the extras on it are pretty great as well. (Here I am, trying to spend more of your money).
I’m happy you are willing to give the films another go and are willing to watch the extras. I think the things you will learn from them will be worth the money spent even if you don’t end up liking the films as much.
As for your Gaiman comments, he is such a magnanimous person that I sometimes worry that his pleasure with the film does not equate to it being good. He has always been very vocal about it being okay when other people take his work, once the rights are secured, of course, and doing what they want with it. That sometimes bothers me. I wouldn’t want him to be Alan Moore though! 🙂
I do like Ale, or what passes for it here in the U.S. I am a fan of Black and Tans (Guiness and some brand of Pale Ale, preferably Bass). I like the mid-range dark beers, Samuel Addams Boston Lager, Pale Ale, etc. Good stuff. I don’t drink them often but always enjoy one or two when I do get the chance. And I would definitely sit down and have one if I was there. I’m serious about those pictures, I would love to see them!
Speaking of crying, I am not ashamed to admit that I pretty much maintain a perpetual state of being near tears whenever I watch the movies or the extras. For the extras it is all about the passion they put into it and how hard it must have been for all these people who spent all these years together to part. Makes me feel very melancholy.
I hope you are able to snag Fellowship soon so we can talk about it. I agree with you, that film should have won the Oscar, easily.
Look forward to you addressing the other stuff, enjoy your evening with your wife, and tell her I am sorry. 😉
carl, i know exactly how you feel with regards to that bond that develops between a group when putting together and putting on a show. i also felt sad at the end… isn’t it funny that no matter how many productions one did that bond would still happen (not with every single production, of course). i think thats why its so cool to see them doing that tattoo thing, of course there were many other bonds created and sad departures during the process of filming, but for these big actors to all bond to that degree is special.
i remember seeing a few docs about the making of lotr and that camaraderie was just beautiful so see. like it showed you there was more to life, you know.
and seeing how they all loved the story and discovered the books was cool. i remember being very envious of the ones who had read the book before – elija wood, i think? christopher lee (hasn’t he read it every year?) – and wished that i could be a part of it. even as orc 76!
by the way, have you seen a history of violence? i love viggo in that. he is superb!
i look forward to seeing the design element of the ext. editions that and the interviews are the two things i like the most! i wish i could sometimes get my hands on some of the concept design for the films i love. you know? that would be a way of getting that little bit closer to the film and taking it into your life.
i definitely like. your friday favourites are why i found this site! and the reason i came back. if i didn’t have a chance to check it out during the week then i always made sure that i checked it out on fridays.
i actually bought the soundtrack to the fellowship… but its in south africa and for the life of me i can’t actually remember how it sounds now… i’m going back in october so i’ll bring it back then… the music is very powerful in the film, i remember. very. its one of those key elements that could so easily have damaged or limited the films impact had it not been good. as such, with it being as good as it is it elevates the films.
i assume you knew that the theme music they used for the trailers from the 2nd one onwards was actually taken from the requiem for a dream soundtrack. not that i recommend seeing it. they mix the theme throughout the film and there is one (or two?) version which is quite long and builds very slowly and is very powerful. just if you’re interested in that particular piece of music. ’cause i remember the lotr version being shortened.
jeff, i totally agree with you that pj and his buddies captured the spirit of the films. from that point of view i couldn’t wish for a better director and film crew. my criticisms of the films themselves are really quite few. parts of the battle scenes (i looked at the earlier post where i mentioned this and i didn’t explain myself) were a bit daft. not all of them. some bits just seemed strategically not very clever…
the pacing is a bit off too at times – although, i need to be more specific here, so will have to get back to you once i’ve watched it again. although, i’ll be watching it with a positive frame of mind and hopefully i won’t even find anything wrong with the pacing! 🙂
but ultimately i don’t have a problem with pj and their integrity regarding the film. my main problem is that – as i said in an earlier post – i felt that the story got too big for him – plotwise. although my usefulness in defending this point of view is seriously waning since i’ve seen it quite a while ago now… i saw the fellowship some 3 or 4 times at cinema and then the others only once or twice each, i think.
hearing you say that the extended scenes are worth putting in, make a difference and fit in seamlessly is heartening. perhaps they’ll even help with the pacing…?!
haha! don’t worry jeff, i don’t feel like you’re piling on with carl! 🙂
yeah… about reading the book after the film… its a thought, isn’t it. i recently watched the black dahlia, and having liked LA confidential i really fancied reading one of his books before seeing the film. i enjoyed the film enough, but it was clearly flawed (i really liked josh hartnett in it – i’ve been waiting for him to turn in a good performance because he has potential!). now, i think i would’ve torn my hair out had i read it beforehand. as it is i quite enjoyed it even though there were obvious problems with it. and i don’t think me having watched it will detract from my enjoyment of reading it…
although, now, the problem will be having to make my own pictures in my mind of how the characters look… i suppose that is one of the really hard things to get around with watching the film beforehand.
i still haven’t seen “a scanner darkly” i still want my wife, charlotte, to read it (although as this discussion shows, i’m beginning to wonder about the merits regarding this more and more…!) but i’ve read it. now as i dislike winona ryder quite a bit i’m rather relieved that i read the book before seeing her in the role. i wouldn’t want her to pervert the book for me.
so its difficult… are those the two main factors?
dissapointment with seeing how they (mis)manage a book you love
vs
potentially having an actors image and character imprinted on your mind?
what do you guys think? there must be more to the whole thing than that…?
oh dear “the league of ext gents…” yeah, well, that was an instance where it was clear that they hadn’t been all too faithful to the graphic novel… and you know, till this day i haven’t watched or read either! because i can’t decide which strategy is best! that is just too funny for words… ’cause really like alan moore.
how silly! hahaha… 🙂
but then i was quite disgusted with what i saw in “from hell”. the only thing that was the same was the theory on who the ripper was…
and v… that looks a bit wrong. very bright and clean. but then its so different from the book that its almost like a cover song, you know? not the film version of the book but another version of the same story. so i don’t mind that so much. i’m quite looking forward to it. i like clean, sparse dystopian worlds…
carl, yeah, perhaps its a good idea to watch the director’s cut first and then, the making of afterwards…
sin city… the bigger dvd… !!! oh dear…! don’t worry, i was planning to get it anyway…:)
as for gaiman, magnanimous is the word. but he does seem genuinely excited about stardust, doesn’t he? just had quick look at his blog but couldn’t find any mention of it. but you may just know what i’m referring to when i ask didn’t he say that if he could’ve made it himself or imagined a film version etc etc, this is how it would’ve looked? or something like that…?
that is something i like about neil though, the way he is so cool and actually very mature about these things. it makes me respect him more.
well those sound like proper ales, yeah. so you’d definitely be quite at home in those pubs and being able to drink an ale for enjoyment – as opposed to me who’d find myself starting to pull a series of funny faces. next time i’m in one of those pubs, though, i’ll definitely raise a glass to you and jeff! 🙂
and those pictures are coming…! i’m heading out early tonight, so i’ll hopefully be able to get a few decent shots!
We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether the film got away from Peter Jackson or not. Filming all three at once and trying to make each one the very best it could be definitely caused them to go down to the wire before finalizing the production on each film, especially Return of the King, but I felt PG, Fran, and Philippa did an amazing job of reigning in and trimming back the story after Fellowship, when the novel breaks all the character groups apart and send them hither and yon. They did a good job of trimming parts out that just didn’t serve the story from a film point of view. Thankfully they added some of that stuff back in for the extended editions, because much of it are things that fans of the book just need to see, pacing be damned. I personally think they flow better now, but again, I am no longer objective about these movies. I much prefer the longer versions so that I can soak in the atmosphere of middle-earth as long as possible.
Howard Shore is amazing. When I bought Return to the King I bought it in a box that included a small resin model of Minis Tirith (yes, I’m a geek) and it also had an additional dvd that showcases movements from The Lord of the Rings Symphony and has bits with Shore talking about his involvement that are different than those on the extended editions. He created such an amazing masterpiece of music. I sat there is awe thinking of just how difficult it must be to be a composer, writing music for all these instruments at once…I tip my hat to him. I am desperately wanting to buy the Complete Recordings for each film (only Fellowship and Two Towers are out so far) but they are mighty pricey…around $60 each, and that is on sale. I’m sure they are worth it, but wow!
I didn’t mind V, it wasn’t great but it was entertaining…but I hadn’t read the comic. The League graphic novels are great…I wouldn’t even bother with the film. From Hell was depressing.
I have never read any of Phillip K. Dick’s works, but I can say that I found A Scanner Darkly very interesting.
Review here.
I like Gaiman’s maturity as well, I really do. I am just going to reserve judgement on his enthusiasm about Stardust until I’ve seen it.
There is definitely a risk to being in love with a book and then being disappointed with the actors chosen to play certain roles. I’m not thrilled with the casting of Robert DeNiro in Stardust, but since the Captain he plays seems, from trailers, to barely resemble the one in the book, it may not be that bad.
Having not read LOTR and loving the cast, I really enjoyed seeing their images and hearing their voices in my head as I read the books for the first time, and I suspect I will feel the same way when I read them again.
You’ll have to tell me what strategy things in the battles you didn’t like, sometime. To me each one looked like any film I’ve seen recreating historical battles. The art of war was certainly different in those times vs. the way we have done it from WWII on (perhaps even before that). I’ll be interested to see what you think of the pacing in the ext. editions, since they are certainly longer films and the things added back in are mostly slower character stuff.
There are four Art of books by Gary Russell (one for each film and one that covers them all) that contain concept art, etc. I don’t own these so I cannot speak to how good they are.
One Wonderful book is The Lord of the Rings Sketchbook by Alan Lee. It is not only a beautifully designed book, it includes wonderful concept art, finished art, and detailed writing about the process by Alan Lee. It is a must have in my opinion. There is a John Howe book that is either out or is coming out (Jeff, did this come into the shop?) that I imagine is pretty great as well.
In the end I am glad that you are willing to rewatch the films and watch the extras. I know they aren’t 100% perfect and I do respect any quibbles you have with them…my personal experience with them is that they are as close to movie perfection as I expect a film to get, but I cannot watch them without bringing all that I know and love about the making of the films, the stuff I love about the books, including The Silmarillion, etc. My emotional attachment to the characters and to the story become the rose colored glasses through which I view each film.
Speaking of trailers, JP, have you ever seen the Lord of the Rings Supertrailer? I love it! You can find it here, it is in the first row on the right hand side.
JP – Much to Carl’s chagrin my wife and I also love Armageddon. Sorry Carl. 🙂
Having thought about the reading the book first or after a film again. I think I weigh in on the side of just risking disappointment and reading a book first before a film. Having seen LOTR multiple times now though it’s hard for me to picture anyone else in my mind except the actors when I read those books. My favorite character has always been Gandalf and Ian McKellan is just as I always imagined him in my mind. I also was worried about the casting of the elves but Cate Blanchett was just perfect too.
Since your a huge fan of Sin City and watching extras you’re going to love the special edition DVD when you get it. I’m also a huge fan of watching all the DVD extras as Carl can attest too. I can’t wait for 300 to come out on DVD in hopes that it’s full of cool extras too.
As for the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen I can’t recommend the comics enough. Out of all of Alan Moore’s work I’ve read it’s my favorite by far. I read most of his stuff except Swamp Thing, Prometha, and his recent Lost Girls. After you read the LEOG though steer far away from the movie otherwise you will be hugely disappointed. It will be two hours plus of your life you can never get back.
As for that John Howe art book Carl. I believe it’s not out yet and I didn’t order any for the comic shop because of the $ 75 dollar price tag. I think it looks incredible. I do own the Alan Lee Lord of the Rings Sketchbook and it’s great (only around 30 dollars I think ).
As for the LOTR soundtracks I will also agree with you that they are all amazing and Carl let’s keep our fingers crossed that someday those prices will come down.
Great discussions gentlemen. I was just thinking now I need to get off my rear and pick up the Children of Hurin book since I don’t own it yet and we’re all posting on that thread. I’m really in the mood for Tolkien after all this LOTR talk. 🙂
oooh! a model of minas tirith! very cool indeed. how tall is it? is it detailed?
you’re right about how difficult it must be to be a composer – because in effect you have to be an expert with regards to all those instruments – obviously not in terms of being able to play them, but to know how they work and their qualities, limitations, potential, what one can do with them etc. and THEN you have to be able to arrange them too!
for your sake i really hope that stardust is okay… and that de niro isn’t de niro but the character he’s meant to portray (and portrays him well!). although de niro is a lot better at playing someone else than other aging big names…
this sketchbook sounds cool…! i like alan lee’s renditions of middle-earth. he captures so much of the world and what’s in tolkien’s books. the drama, beauty, splendour, tragedy, power, delicacy… i could go on…
i really like john howe! i absolutely love his cover of gandalf on the lotr one volume edition. i think his cover of The War of the Ring (History of Middle-Earth) must be my favourite piece of lotr art! that moment with the oliphaunt just captivated me. i loved it. and howe captured it so well in that painting. he painted it literally just like i saw it!
i’ll be checking out that trailer later today…
with regards to scanner darkly – i really do find the rotoscoping thing for the film intriguing and cool. there is a real oddness, an almost out-of-synchness to the novel that i think that look captues…
jeff, ian mckellen is so good at gandalf it makes the mind boggle… he has the look right, although i still imagine a slightly different gandalf. but when i see ian’s performance i’m never left in any doubt that it IS gandalf because he captures the essence of the character. the depth, wisdom, humour and ambiguity of gandalf!
300…! oh… i’m so happy that they’ve managed to translate miller’s work so well onto the screen. its easy to say that his work lends itself to film, but its still could’ve easily been messed up! i’m also glad miller was still willing to work with hollywood, considering the bad experiences he had in the past!
league i simply have to read…! i love the concept! and swamp thing is very very good. just to see what he does on a long run of a comic is really cool…! its so fresh and varied, and he ties up loose ends… very cool. and the imagination behind it. he really experiments with some cool concepts!
i’m also hankering after some more tolkien…! i just love his rhythmic and measured narrative voice!
The model is fairly detailed for its size. You can see a picture of it here.
You HAVE to get the Alan Lee sketchbook! It is a must have for any Tolkien fan, in my opinion, regardless of one’s feeling about the movies.
Jeff is right, the Howe book isn’t out yet and it was expensive. I think we both were hoping to see one first before deciding whether or not to buy it.
Do you own the Maps of Middle Earth book/map set by Howe and Brian Sibley? I look at that longingly every time I am in the store, as well as the other annotated map book that is out there.
Regardless of how the Stardust film is, we will always have the book/illustrated book that we are in love with and the movie won’t change that.
JP – Thanks for your thoughts on Swamp Thing. I think his run is collected in 5 graphic novels and I may have to make them apart of my summer reading now, too.
I see that 300 is coming out on July 3rd on DVD. I didn’t find any specifics on it though so I’m keeping my fingers crossed for an extras laden special edition.
I also read of another John Howe art book just tonight that is coming out this fall. It’s called John Howe Fantasy Art Workshop. It’s 128 pages and $ 24.95 US. The description goes like this: This is John Howe’s first practical fantasy art book detailing a wide selection of his best work and invaluable insights into ” how I do it and why. ” Sounds cool. I can’t wait to check this one out too.
I also worry about DeNiro in Stardust and hope is role is very small as it was in the book.
Carl shared the pub pictures we me too JP. Very cool.
Opps. I made one error guys 300 comes out July 31st. Sorry.
oh yeah, even though they market alan lee as the guy who did the design stuff for the films he was already illustrating the world before that – so i have no problem with it at all. in fact, i have no problem with any visual elements of the film – quite the contrary. i love it! it is just as i imagined it.
i do have that map book! haha! you’re unearthing just how deep my geekiness goes now… i used to have it on my wall when i was still in school. i also had it up during university. its so cool, isn’t it?
i am a bit of a map person, though. not that i have any others, but i like them and i pore over them. i love it if fantasy or science fiction books have maps in them. hell, i like it even if books set in the real world have them. but with lotr its particularly special because its such a rich and interesting world. a beautiful worlds so delicately and carefully created. and having it on ones wall is just so nice. it brings a bit of middle-earth into your life.
i’ve always been meaning to mount it properly or something but that would mean removing the book… so i don’t know? i want to see it though – i don’t want to keep it in the book… what do you guys think?
i see there are two maps – this is the one that i have:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Map-Tolkiens-Middle-earth-Brian-Sibley/dp/0261103180
jeff, i’ve noticed that its reprinted in 5 volumes… if you can at all try and get the (now out-of-print it would seem) trades that run to 11 volumes. i just say this because thats what i read and i can’t speak for the 5 volume set. if anything i can’t imagine the story having the same impact if the trades are halved…
i don’t know how hard they are to get hold of. i do see them occasionally on ebay though. i’ve put them on my library on librarything if you want the isbns (although i’m not 100% of their accuracy…). also, there are cover images for some of them, so you can know what they look like. here’s my library:
http://www.librarything.com/catalog.php?view=joe_chip
if that doesn’t work then you can search librarything.com and my username is joe_chip.
another john howe book…? goodie…! (rubs hands in delight)
That is the book I was talking about, JP, only they did a different edition recently that is in a box set:
http://www.amazon.com/Maps-Tolkiens-Middle-Earth-Brian-Sibley/dp/061839110X/ref=sr_1_1/102-3999044-6624948?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183044516&sr=1-1
that also covers the Hobbit. I think the book might be updated or it may be the exact same volume. It looks pretty cool.
Speaking of maps, the tactless person who posted the ‘we are nerds’ post yesterday had this link a few posts down that I found really interesting regarding Middle-earth maps and real locations.
I also saw this book in the store yesterday. I wish the maps were more full color…or better yet drawn by Lee or Howe or both…but it looks like it might be a geek’s paradise for following along with while reading the books again or watching the films.
I have a fair amount of science fiction and fantasy stuff framed and up in my house…very tastefully I think (Jeff?) so I’m all in support of you framing your stuff up nicely and putting it out! Of course you don’t live with me, so you better consult with your better half! 😉
Yes, Carl I think your SF&F prints, etc. are framed very tastefully. In fact I need to frame more of my own myself.
JP – Thanks for the graphic novel info. I think with this kind of lead time I can track them all down before the RIP challenge. I work part-time at a comic shop so I’m going to see exactly what we have in stock when I go in tommarrow night and what I might need to order.
JP & Carl – Count me also as a huge lover of maps and especially when they inculde them in books. I distinctly remember reading The Hobbit for the first time in the 7th grade and loving the map in that book. I consulted it constantly as I read the book following the party on there journey to Mount Doom. I also can still picture how ominus Mount Doom looked on the map to this day in my mind. especially as a 12 year old.
yeah, i discovered that map book when i was trying to find my one. having the hobbit stuff in there would be cool!
that map which looks at where midde-earth possible corrseponds with our earth is interesting… i can say one thing for sure, the shire is very english!
that atlas looks very cool. wow… i see what you mean about the maps, though. they seem a bit plain. and the font’s a bit funny too. it looks like the kind of font that might be used in asterix or some comic book.
but yeah… to have it on hand while reading the books… OH! that’d be cool!
yeah – its difficult to get my stuff – be it models or paintings – into the lounge and bedroom. as it is i have a bedside table cluttered with stuff on it. a few little figurines and stuff make it into the big world, though. i have a tiny spider-man model that lives on one of the shelves in the lounge. oh, we should be getting another book shelf soon – for my books… so i can put little things on that…
one day when we have a study, i said to her, then that room is mine! the map will go in there.
jeff, let me know how you get on with getting hold of swamp thing…
wow, you can picture mount doom in your mind. that is very cool. you must’ve really loved “the hobbit”.
i read it at a similar time to you. i have this very funny memory of me having finally decided to read lotr – so i went up to our school librarian and in a very business-like and serious tone said “i have decided to read “the lord of the rings”. do you have “the hobbit”?. haha…! 🙂
i just love that. “i have decided”. like i’m saying, “i have decided to become a vegitarian” or “to change my allegience to the conservative party”…
i just had a look at the trailer – i haven’t actualy seen a trailer for all three films…
it really put me in the mood for watching them…! and reminded me of how visually beautiful they are.
Glad you enjoyed the supertrailer. Whoever put that together did an amazing job.
I have a ‘study’ of sorts. Although the pics, etc. in it change back and forth you can find pics of what it mostly looks like here as well as a picture of the completed and filled bookshelf in our bedroom:
http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/?p=477
I read a review for that Atlas book and one of the guys who wrote and extensive LOTR map commented that the first edition was wildly inaccurate in places and that none of those things were corrected in the latest edition. Although I am unlikely to be *that* geeky about it (I’m pretty darn close to being that way already though), it kind of puts me off buying it. I am going to add the Sibley/Howe maps thing to my wishlist though. I love the way the boxed set looks just by itself, independent of the goodies inside it.
I was cracking up at your “I have decided…” comment. I’m sure the librarian got a chuckle out of that one!
Annie, our 10 year old challenge participant who read LOTR for the challenge, just got done watching Fellowship for the first time and both her and her mom loved it. Debi, her mom, mentioned in an email that she knew she would like it but had no idea she would be that blown away by it. That made me smile!
Jean Pierre – The comic shop didn’t have Vol. 1 of Swamp Thing in stock but our distributer did so I ordered it and it should arrive in a few weeks. I’ll let you know what I think of it later this July after it comes in and I’ve got a chance to read it. I saw a picture of the cover of volume 1 though and it looked great. I can’t wait to see it in person. Thanks again for the recommendation.
i really like your study and the way you’ve framed the stuff in there. have decided what to do with those two shelves by the door (in the first photo)? i like how you have the books dotted about – kind of giving each of them their own little space and celebrating them.
of the course the sword is AMAZING!!!
:0
oh dear… if there are inaccuracies in the atlas then i definitely won’t be buying it. i mean, thats what you’re buying it for – the information.
i’m glad annie liked “the fellowship” so much and i really hope she likes the subsequent installments to! wow – imagine what it must be like being introduced to that world at that age…! i know i would’ve gone mental about it!!!
the pleasure’s all mine jeff – “swamp thing” is a great book!
I have no earthly idea why I didn’t read Lord of the Rings, or Chronicles of Narnia, as a kid. I started reading fantasy and science fiction at a fairly early age. I have to imagine that, since my uncle–who was my major sci fi influence–didn’t read fantasy, and neither did anyone else around me, I just didn’t realize these major works even existed. I am sad that I didn’t come to these works until adulthood, but am thrilled I finally did as I am enjoying making up for lost time.
It didn’t take long for the top shelf and the bottom shelf of that bookcase to be filled with books. I have several larger books laying lengthwise on the bottom shelf. My wife recently got that old typewriter (pictured with poppets in some of my recent posts) which was what I intended to put on that shelf but it is looking nice in the living room right now and bookshelf space is more than needed for books right now.
I look forward to bumming Jeff’s Swamp Thing book off of him after he is finished so I too can check it out! 😉
Anytime, my friend! 🙂
Well, not exactly…I can’t borrow it TODAY, for instance! 😉
Hey guys, jumping into this conversation late in the game 😉 Haven’t read it all, but read the beginning and the end!
I’m like you Carl..I didn’t read the Lord of the Rings trilogy until after I saw the films. Of course I was horribly embarrassed about this, but..so it goes. So I can never have that point of view of judging the movies from a “knowing the books first” point of view like Jean Pierre. For me, personally, having seen the films actually added to the experience of the books. It elevated my Tolkien experience. It was like having the worlds that I glimpsed into in the films being totally revealed to me through the novels. I feel absolutely horrible saying this, but Jackson laid the foundation for my Tolkien experience and the books perfected it. I hope that some of this makes sense.
It almost sounds like I’m putting Jackson before Tolkien, but that’s not AT ALL what I mean. I’m sure I would’ve read LOTR eventually, but Jackson hastened that process as I’m sure he did for thousands of others. And I’m glad he did. I have no idea why I waited so long to read Tolkien’s books. Absolutely amazing. I have Children of Hurin sitting on my shelf, but I still haven’t read it! I should be getting to it soon, but I think I want to re-read LOTR first, and I’d like to read the Silmarillion as well (I’ve never read that one either!).
As far as the extended DVDs, I agree that they are amazing pieces of work! When Megan first got them, we spent many entire days watching these from when we woke up until when we went to bed. And then her mom got a hold of them and we used to laugh our asses of because every time we would go to visit her mom, one of the dvds would be on. She literally played them non-stop every day! It was great…
Great conversation going on here guys. I’m going to have to catch up on everything. Oh and Carl…I still haven’t read all of the Narnia books :/ I’ve read The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe quite a few times, but that’s all I’ve read. I have 2 C.S. Lewis books on my list for the Classics challenge, so I’m thinking of making him a theme and reading all of the Narnia books…I own them all, so they’re just waiting for me!
And whoa! I just checked out the link to the tour of your stuff and you have so much cool shite! I thoroughly enjoyed being a nerd voyeur into your home 😉
I can’t remember when you first started coming over here, Chris. Seems like you’ve been here all along. Didn’t realize you hadn’t seen that post.
I don’t feel bad about being introduced to Tolkien by P.J. and Company, I just think it is odd that I never read it before nor really had a desire to…I simply had almost no knowledge of what the stories were before they started making the films.
I haven’t read all of Narnia either. I’ve read the first 4 books is all. I know alot about the final book as well just from people talking about it.
That’s great that Megan’s mom became enamored with the films as well. I can certainly identify with her!
Glad you’re joining in on the conversation!
Enamored is too kind of a word…it became more of an obsession 😉 No, I kid…She fell in love with Sean Bean as Boromir and thought that he died so eloquently and would watch the scene of his death over and over again. We gave her a hard time about that one, but I think it’s great.
I don’t think I was ever really interested in LOTR before the movies because I was never really into high fantasy…at least I didn’t think that I was. The films showed me that it could be done very well though. And of course, George R.R. Martin has also shown me that it can be done well…maybe I do like high fantasy, who knows?! Once I saw the films and fell in love with them, I turned to the books, and voila! A new Tolkien fan was born.
I think I started coming to your site around January of this year Carl. It does in fact seem like much longer than that, but I just started my own blog in January, so it was around that same time. Weird…I feel like I’ve been blogging and visiting blogs much longer than that!
i tell you carl, there are just too many things out there and, especially when we are growing up, it is so hard to experience the best of everything – even something that now seems as obviously as great as lotr. just too many things…
but i know what you mean. i sometimes wonder as well, “how did i not discover this sooner!”. as you say, though, its a kind of gift that we can still keep discovering amazing things!
c.s. lewis certainly came down in my estimation, though, for obvious reasons. so not having read the narnia books isn’t much of a big deal. you know? its not something i’d say you must read before you die – like lotr. not to go all neil gaiman loopy (we mention him so much…!) but he put it perfectly really. i can’t say it any better. so: what he said.
are you going to post some more of your bookshelves? its somewhat invasive, but i’m a serious bookshelf voyeur!
you’ll definitely like “swamp thing”. you seem to enjoy gothic lit a lot and this is gothic all over.
chris! glad you joined us! thats the beauty of these films to me and the single testament to their quality that can’t be argued with – that they directed so many people to his work. like i said to carl, we can’t all discover EVERYTHING by ourselves, its impossible. so i’m glad pj introduced so many to tolkien’s amazing world.
i can also understand why you say the films elevated the experience. the films are incredibly rich and engaging. also, i think, if there is any small criticism one can make about tolkien, its that his work can be a bit dry for some people and make it hard to get into his work.
more motivation to watch the extended eds…! 🙂 cool.
go boromir! i don’t know if you’ve read that bit yet, but i love boromir and love the way he’s presented in the film. megan’s mom and i can watch him together and weep at his death scene…! 🙂
The Lewis debate, as brought up by Gaiman and others, is an interesting one. I’ve talked to other Christian readers who do not interpret the events in The Last Battle the same way that Gaiman, Pullman, etc. do. I’ve also heard several people, Jeff included, who read them as a kid and didn’t get any of that stuff out of them but just enjoyed them for what they were. I probably won’t ever get to the rest simply because I have too many other things to read. I enjoyed the one’s that I read immensely, especially The Magician’s Nephew.
For me I just didn’t have any influence that would have introduced Tolkien or Lewis into my life as a child. It is unsure whether I would have read them even if I had, but as much as I read when I was young I probably would have read and least one of those series.
I can sort of understand why people might find Tolkien’s work dry, but I do not understand it fully simply because the movies made such an impression on me that I have been predisposed to absorbing every word. I see such life and passion in the geneology lists, etc. in The Silmarillion, etc. but that is influenced so much by the movies. Who knows what I would have thought about all of it if I had read it beforehand.
And just for you JP, so I don’t distract from the Tolkien conversation, here is a link to updated pics of the bookshelf:
http://www.stainlesssteeldroppings.com/?p=477#comment-63254
Chris – It’s great to have you join in!
My intro. in reading fantasy books started in the 7th grade. I had to read The Hobbit as a school assignment. After that I was hooked. I then read LOTR, the Narnia books, a series by Lloyd Alexander called the Black Caldroun I believe, and Terry Brooks Shannarra books were just starting out then. It was a school assignment I’m so glad I didn’t rebel against. Carl is also right about my feelings on the Narnia books as a young adult. I read them and picked up on NONE of the religious messages others get out of them. I just enjoyed them for the adventure stories they were in my mind. I didn’t fall in love them with them like I did with Tolkiens and Terry Brooks books though at the time. My reading habits have changed over time though and the fantasy I like now is much different than then. I don’t read any Terry Brooks anymore or other books in the D&D type vein while I favor Gaiman and George RR Martin now. I have no doubt though in 20 years my life and reading experiences will mold my author favorites to others but I can’t imagine my love of the fantasy genre ever weakening. It’s too ingrained in me now. 🙂
It’s funny how each of us has these supposed ” big ” works in the fantasy genre it took us forever to read. For Carl and Chris it was reading LOTR finally after the movies came out for example. For me it was waiting like ten years before read the Sandman series while working at a comic shop for most all that time. I look back now and can’t believe it took me so long to read that series and I have no good reason for it either.
Next week when I have some time off I promise I’m going to read The Children of Hurin so I can itch this Tolkien reading scratch I have.
Great Boromir story with Megan’s mom, too Chris.
I must have gone to some strange schools. I was never assigned The Hobbit or the Narnia books to read in school, and from what I hear, these are fairly common…I wish I would’ve been exposed to them at an earlier age (though I did read Lion, Witch, & Wardrobe around age 10), though at the same time, I’m glad I waited until I was a little older…
Carl, question: Did you go straight to the LOTR books after seeing the films, or did you read The Hobbit first? I read the Hobbit first and absolutely fell in love with it and feel that it was a great intro into Tolkien’s world for the LOTR trilogy. I want the Alan Lee illustrated Hobbit so bad! That’s such a beautiful book! I’ve been eyeing it everytime I go into the bookstore, but I already have 2 copies of the Hobbit and feel stupid buying a third :p
Jeff, I’ve found that my tastes in fantasy have changed alot too since I started reading it…When I first started reading fantasy, I was very into this neo-fantasy stuff…vampire novels..poppy z. brite, anne rice..that kind of stuff. Then came Neil Gaiman who really “matured” my taste and opened up a world of authors to me…since then, I’ve discovered so many different sub-genres of fantasy..one of my favories being urban fantasy. Love the feel of those novels…authors like Charles deLint, Orson Scott Card’s Magic Street, Stephen King’s Lisey’s Story, etc. etc. Now I’m starting to find that I may like authors like Martin more than I though…just never really gave those novels a chance.
I’ve got to read Children of Hurin! I have a Tolkien scratch too now that needs itching after reading this. I may make this the month of Tolkien…that would be fun. I haven’t watched the films in probably over a year. It would be nice to revisit those, especially after all this talk of them. I always forget how magical those films are until I watch them again and it’s like watching them for the first time. And the books…oh the books….
I usually have ‘itches’ that need ‘scratched’…guess I’m an odd duck. 😉
I’m different from Jeff in the sense that eventhough I do grow and change in my reading likes, I never really stop enjoying the stuff I read earlier in life. Now there might be non-fantasy or non-sci fi that I read as a kid that I wouldn’t enjoy as much now, but by and large I still love reading the stuff I read when younger. The Stainless Steel Rat books, A World of Time, the Brian Daley books…all that stuff is as enjoyable to me now as it was then. I didn’t read alot of D&D type fantasy though, so I may have felt the same had I read that stuff when young vs. the fantasy I read now. Low-brow sci fi may hold up better over time than low-brow fantasy, not sure…
Chris, I read the Hobbit right before Fellowship of the Ring came out and then I read part of Fellowship after seeing the movie but decided early in that I just wanted to put the books aside until after I had seen the whole series of films. I enjoyed the Hobbit and was glad to have the knowledge of that story going into the Fellowship film.
i myself didn’t pick up any of the christian stuff the first time i read it and i loved them. but looking at it now its glaringly obvious and … well, quite insulting really.
i didn’t read much fantasy because i didn’t read too much at all until i got to university – i read about 6, 7, 8 books a year. i read comics though 🙂 so i was very lucky that i discovered narnia and lotr at all!
since i didn’t really read enough to have a certain genre that i was into i guess i can’t really speak of how my tastes have evolved. i did definitely lean towards fantasy, though. along with narnia and lotr i also read a david eddings and i’m sure something else – although it escapes me now…
i started reading science fiction when i got to uni, although i had always been into it – i loved science fiction tv shows and films – i just never got around to reading any books.
its interesting that you guys speak of reading “the hobbit” before lotr, ’cause i actually felt somewhat mislead by having read “the hobbit”… not really, of course, just somewhat. especially because everyone says you have to read it and its a prequel and all.
but they’re very different books. the tone is extremely different! its like the difference between “coraline” and “american gods”, you know?
i just remember feeling a kind of displacement, like a kind of “this wasn’t what i was expecting!”.
a particularly rude shock is when you finish “the hobbit” loving bilbo and thinking he’s your hero and then starting lotr and discovering he’s been all perverted. its a very rude awakening.
“quite insulting really”….I can understand why you feel that way, but I personally don’t see it that way as that is exactly what Lewis set out to do. He was writing Christian allegory using a mixture of biblical things and mythology. I’m not the biggest fan of allegory myself…it has to be very well done to not be obvious and thus to have any power. I think the reason Lewis succeeded is that these are written for children and unless they are taught to see it that way, it really isn’t really ‘preachy’. They just don’t hold up as well as adult books unless you personally share those same beliefs.
“a particularly rude shock is when you finish “the hobbit†loving bilbo and thinking he’s your hero and then starting lotr and discovering he’s been all perverted. its a very rude awakening.” That is one of the reasons I think the LOTR books are so powerful…the same is true with the way Frodo is ultimately corrupted to the point of almost ruining the whole quest. There is a very sad, but realistic quality to the mixture of hope/victory and sacrifice, especially as regards Frodo. Could you imagine what it would have been like to have read the Hobbit initially and then waited all those years to read a sequel to the Hobbit, only to get The Lord of the Rings? Obviously large amounts of people loved it, but it certainly must have come as a shock to some.
For me I knew enough about the years that came between The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings and knew that the tone, etc was different so it wasn’t as big of a surprise for me. I thought the Hobbit was initially a bit hard to get into, but once I did I really enjoyed it quite alot. Not as much as the rest of the books, of course, but I still enjoyed it.
Chris – Just to be clear I only read The Hobbit for school not the Narnia books. In the 12th grade I did get to read the Three Musketeers by Alexander Dumas for an assignment which I loved as well. You also bring up a great point in exposure. There are lots of books I’m still discovering because I have never been exposed to them. I’m telling you that is the best thing about reading all these great blog’s this last year. I’ve been exposed to so much which has been incredible. Just the insight on so many books has helped me become educated on so many books that I just don’t get anywhere in my regular day to day life. Of course all the books I want to read at the same time can be over whelming. I need to read some more Orson Scott Card too. You are very passionite about him along with Gaiman. I read his novel Ender’s Game earlier this year which I liked a lot but didn’t love. I was wondering how you rate this novel among his works. Are there other Card books you would recommend more than it or do you think that it is a fair representation of most of his works. I’m very interested in hearing more of your thoughts on him. I also haven’t watched the LOTR films in atleast a year. I’m taking some vacation days next week and I’m hoping to take some time to watch them again along with reading Children of Hurin.
JP – I will agree with you on the Narnia books. I really hate it when authors try veil their own religious or political agendas in books in a heavy handed way and it REALLY pisses me off when they do this in books aimed at young people. I ran into this recently in a book I just read called The Golden Compass by Phillip Pullman. From an adult perspective I really dug this book but I’m shocked this book’s main character is only twelve years old and the book is squarely marketed at a young adult market. I intend to read the second novel but I’m not going to let my 10 year old daughter read the series. I just feel that ideas the arise are for an older teenagers and older to read and mull over. I don’t have a problem with the subjects at all that the author raises it’s just that I don’t think a 10 to 12 year old has had enough life experience yet to make there own decisions on these matters. They’re just too impressionable and hesitant to make there own choices at this age. They are much more likely to just go along with whatever views there parents have and not have the self confidence to make up there own mind on an issue and stick to it even if there view goes against the popular view on an issue. I haven’t encouraged my kids to read the Narnia books now as adult because of how I feel about the series now. I wouldn’t deny them from reading it but I won’t encourage it either. I’d much rather them read the Kate DeCamillo books instead.
I also have always watched SciFi shows throughout my whole life since I watched Star Wars on opening day as an 8 year old. The funny thing is I’ve always gravitated towards reading fantasy books though. I find that so weird about myself. I will agree with your comparison of The Hobbit and LOTR to Coraline and American Gods. I also don’t think one needs to read The Hobbit to enjoy LOTR. I also remember being so disappointed with how Tolkien had written Bilbo in LOTR. I had grown to like him so much by the end of The Hobbit. He was our everyman. He was who we could see ourselves in the role. When LOTR has started his life just seems so dull and empty. I remembering feeling so let down in the fact that all he did was just go back to Hobbiton and lead such a dull life. How disappointing was that to me as a twelve year old. I guess that’s why I loved Stardust so much as an adult because at the end you know there are so many more stories to tell because of the continued adventures alluded too by Gaiman.
I will agree with you Carl on Frodo’s journey and the powerful messages of LOTR. That is why the story still lives today because those issues are so relavant and never go away. I’m so glad I didn’t have to wait all those years between The Hobbit and Fellowship because it would have been a shock but a pleasant one. I hate all the waiting between George RR Martin books now. Waiting for the whole LOTR tale to be published would have been agonizing. 🙂
This discussion has been so damn great guys! Thanks!
I agree with all of you guys that I’m glad I didn’t have to wait so long between The Hobbit and LOTR! With that being said…I had kind of the opposite experience of yours Carl. I got into The Hobbit immediately and it took me a little while to get into LOTR. When I did get into LOTR though, I agree with JP…It’s like comparing American God’s with Coraline. One’s a masterpiece, the other is a great book, but one that is not quite at the same caliber. The Hobbit will always hold a special place in my heart though. I smiled quite a bit while reading that book and it was my first journey with Tolkien. One of the things that makes LOTR so powerful is that opening where Bilbo has really done nothing with his life but become corrupted and infatuated…powerful stuff there.
Jeff, I definitely would not say that Ender’s Game is the best of OSC’s work. It’s the most popular. I loved the last 2 or 3 chapters of Ender’s Game when he was with the hive queen…that was a bit more characteristic. My favorite book of his is Speaker for the Dead which is the sequel to Ender’s Game. It’s my favorite book of any authors…maybe tied with American Gods 😉 Give it a shot..if you don’t like that, maybe Card’s not for you. If you want something Fantasy related, Hart’s Hope is a traditional fantasy, Enchantment is a fairy tale sort of fantasy, and Magic Street is an urban fantasy…another great series by him is the Homecoming series which starts with The Memory of Earth. He has so many books! All of them are great.
To be completely honest, when I did read Lord of the Rings I actually read Two Towers first, the Return of the King, and then Fellowship. Odd, yes, but at the time I was in a mood for the events that begin with Two Towers. So….
I too think Fellowship is hard to get into at first and is the weakest of the three novels, although I still think it is great. It just meanders quite a bit before it really gets going.
Carl, I will agree with your Fellowship comments whole heartedly. I really didn’t think it got going until they meet Strider then the adventure truely begins in my opinion.
Chris, Thanks so much for the Orson Scott Cards recommendations. I will defiently will check out some more of his books this next year and when I do I let you know what I think.
i’m a bit confused, carl, as to why you don’t find it insulting what lewis does with narnia. i can understand if the allegory was obvious and there was little or no deception, but the allegory wasn’t obvious at all to me. which is what bothers me – i felt rather betrayed.
that said, though, i do wonder how didactic this allegory of his actually is… you know? i haven’t done any research on what his intentions were with the book, but perhaps lewis’ use of allegory is quite innocent. maybe the story was that ingrained in him that he couldn’t but help include it?
i certainly agree with you that much of the power in the lotr lies in that realism that comes from the handling of bilbo and frodo for instance.
jeff, the philip pullman books… they’re definitely a bit grown-up for their audience. i must say, though, that since they’ve come out his books have been incredibly popular with all the kids that i’ve taught. they’ve been captivated with them. so i hadn’t thought about that – except for the religious stuff (unless thats what you mean?) – until now.
with the religious stuff, there’s something wacky going on there…! the religious statement he’s making in it is very strong and potentially damaging – especially to kids at the age that they’re reading it. in fact its potentially damaging to all kids, 10 years old or teenage!
that is very funny that you tend to watch science fiction but read fantasy… i love that kind of thing about ourselves! ’cause you can’t really explain it, can you?
chris, like you, it actually took me a while to get into the lotr. i was downright bored. whats this birthday nonsense! when he disappears and the ring talk starts, and one discovers just what bilbo has become i felt quite sad and down. i also thought, who the hell’s this frodo!? why couldn’t tolkien carry on with bilbo? or if he was going to use frodo, why didn’t he introduce him in “the hobbit”?! and who’s this sam, pip and merry (i thought merry was a girl for quite a while! 🙂 )? for a moment there i really doubted this was going to work! haha! its funny to think back to that. of course now i fully understand and, in fact, love what tolkien does to bilbo and how he brings in frodo.
carl, it definitely meanders. oh yes. i remember finding it particularly boring when they leave hobbiton.. and then the ringwraith blokes attack and oooh! it gets interesting. and then (as with jeff) strider appears and suddenly i cannot tear my eyes from the page! haha 🙂
i do remember wishing for bilbo to make a comeback for quite a while during the fellowship… but by the time i got into “the two towers” i was totally into the whole frodo thing!
chris, i’ve read “ender’s shadow” which i enjoyed in a similar way to jeff. it was cool, but it didn’t really make me definitely want to read another. how would you compare it to his other stuff?
jeff, i agree, this conversation is badass!
I wasn’t insulted with what Lewis did with Narnia because I knew all along (having not read any of them until adulthood) that these books were a Christian allegory. Not quite as cut and dried as, say, Pilgrim’s Progress, because Lewis used pagan mythology and folklore along with Christian themes. Lewis went from being an avowed athiest to believing in and accepting Christ. That is a life-changing event which affected all of his writing afterwards, from the Narnia books to the very thought-provoking non-fiction work.
If you are referring to the idea that Susan is rejected from heaven, as Neil Gaiman asserts in The Problem of Susan, I have talked to many people who do not interpret the events in The Last Battle the way he does. Keep in mind that for me this is all conjecture as I have not read it, and remember that Narnia isn’t an exact one-for-one allegory, there is a bunch of stuff for which there is no real correlation. Anyway, I’ve heard others say that Susan isn’t rejected from heaven when she chooses to grow up, to concentrate on make-up, etc. and the things of the world. She is, however, unable to return to Narnia because she no longer believes that those were anything but dreams or games. However, she does, or will, go to Heaven where her parents are. It isn’t like she’s rejected by God, just that she lets go of the childlike belief in Narnia and thus loses that. Again, I have no idea as I haven’t read it, but I trust the people I’ve talked to that this is as valid an interpretation and fits better with the overall theme of the stories than what Gaiman thinks. Is it a cop-out that he kills them all at the end of the last book? Maybe, but how many other authors have messed things up along the way. I don’t think the books are perfect, but having read the first four I can say that I understand how they have stood the test of time and are beloved by kids…being transported to a magical world filled with all kinds of mythological creatures…who wouldn’t want to do that?
And your thoughts on betrayal I think echo Tolkien’s criticism against allegory. I have absolutely no context to truly understand that betrayal simply because I was raised a Christian and even as a child had seen the Narnia books in Christian bookstores so eventhough I really knew nothing about them, I always assumed in the back of my mind that there was a religious element to them. And again, I read them as an adult already knowing that. I respect you feeling that way. Jeff can probably chime in better on this as he read them as a kid and didn’t pick up on that either.
I guess the only comparison I could make with that is if I found out some book I loved as a child was a thinly veiled allegory promoting racism or something else that I feel strongly opposed to I would feel the same way, so I understand feeling betrayed, or cheated, by the experience in that sense. Like I said, it is a more subtle allegory from a child’s standpoint than a book like Pilgrim’s Progress. I hope I’m not being confusing and am answering your question, JP. I don’t want it to sound like I am disagreeing with you as I am not, I do understand from an intellectual point of view what you are saying, I just haven’t had an experience like that with literature to draw a good emotional comparison to.
And now, back to Tolkien:
Strider is definitely a point where Fellowship picks up. I think watching the movies and knowing the story actually helped me make it through the parts of Fellowship that dragged early on because at that point I already loved these characters and was interested in them despite the story’s early faults.
I’ve said it some before, but I really like hearing what you guys are saying about being saddened by what happened to Bilbo as I really strongly pick up on that sadness in the films and books with both Bilbo and Frodo. I remember walking out of Return of the King and (despite LOVING it) feeling like someone had punched me in the gut. I felt so strongly that Frodo had actually failed in his quest and that moment where he was human, instead of heroic, really got to me. It is so powerful. Plus Elijah Wood, with those big eyes, can do the ‘tortured soul’ thing with just a look which made it that much more painful to see. Keep in mind that I had NO IDEA what happens with this story as I had never read the books and hadn’t paid attention to any spoilers. I remember seeing Sam scream “no….” in the trailers and wondering if Frodo somehow dies. I never dreamed he might actually get to that point and be overcome by the ring.
I know in the books Frodo actually stays in the Shire longer and is a productive part of the community, but the idea that he always has this physical pain, from the sword at Weathertop, as well as the emotional/spiritual pain of regret and sadness for what he almost did is a very sad and powerful concept. One that I can relate to as I certainly have moments of past regret that gnaw at me to this day.
It took me many, many times of watching Return of the King to get my focus off the sadness of Frodo and the increased sadness of Frodo and Gandalf’s leaving Middle-earth to notice the way Frodo’s countenance changes when he steps on the boat. Elijah Wood again uses those eyes. He turns back to his friends and he has the most peaceful smile on his face and in his eyes. He has the look of freedom on his face. Don’t know why it took me so long to really ‘notice’ that, but it really brought home ideas of forgiveness and peace. It is a simple but profound moment in the films. I get teared up just thinking about it (and isn’t it cool how thinking about it makes the LOTR soundtrack start playing in your mind…or am I the only one). 🙂
Love talking with you guys about this stuff!
Carl, Don’t you always have a soundtrack going in your head? I know I do! 🙂 Sometimes LOTR and sometimes South Park the Musical ( Blame Canada! Blame Canada! ).
Great LOTR points especially noticing the change in Frodo when he gets on the boat. In some ways for all the “cool” battles scenes in LOTR it almost feels like an anti-war film. The effect of the journey on the four hobbits is so devestating. We can all place ourselves in their roles at different parts of the movies and all the choices they make seen to lead them down darker and more painful paths. Even Sam in the end still feels all this pain for Frodo even though he has found some happiness with a family. Tolkien still doesn’t let Sam be content. I wonder if it’s part of how Tolkien felt inside his own soul after his own war experiences. Tolkien seems to remind us even when good rises up to defeat evil good becomes tainted at the same time. Such saddness.
JP – I think the hard part of this Narnia disccussion is we read them the first time without the knowledge that they were Chistian allegory stories and Carl didn’t. We enjoyed them and then we find out they weren’t just the adventure stories we thought they were. For me that ticked me off because I don’t like feeling duped by an author that way. I really don’t like reading there political and/or religious views marketed as fiction. Now if I know that I’m going to get that going into a story then it’s ok because I walking in eyes wide open but when someone deceives me on purpose it really pisses me off. It doesn’t matter whether they mean well our not it’s just that I feel stupid that they got one over on me. That may be a small minded emotional response from me but I guess I’m just that way when it comes to certain subjects.
As for the Dark Materials. I know that tons of kids love these books like you said and they’ve won all kinds of awards so maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but it’s just that I feel kind of overprotective with my kids. After how I feel about the Narnia books now as an adult I feel now I see another set of books ( with it what a lot of very controversial ideas ) trying to get over on a new generation of kids and it ticks me off. Plus I don’t think most parents moniter anything there kids read so they can try and have discussions with them about it. I don’t even see a lot of parents even encouraging there kids to read much less talking with them about what they’ve read. I guess that’s a whole nother rant. 🙂
JP – I guess I should say inregards to the Dark Materials books it’s the religious creation/sin “dust” ideas I’m refering too. I’ve also only read the first book so far so I can’t comment on how the series ends yet in regards to these ideas. The whole anti-organized religion aspect doesn’t bother me so much but again this is all pretty deep subject matter in my opinion to market to young adults around 12 years old which is the age of the main character.
I don’t have a problem with the racism issues in book one so much because of how he handles it by the end of the book. I was kind of shocked by it at the beginning of them book. I’m sure it might be a cultural thing on my part. Racisim is such a touchy subject over here. I don’t know how sensitive an issue it is in your country. I really hope this comes across the right way and I almost didn’t type this paragraph but racisim is kind of like a big white elephant walking around in the living room over here. It’s not overt so much as subtle in many ways. Our big melting pot sometimes can really melt down when it comes to racial/poltical/and relgious issues. The subtle way the main character Lyra treats the ” Egyptians ” in the beginning of the novel was quite shocking to read for me in the begining but of course as the story goes on her view of these people is greatly changed. So Pullman gives readers a good life lesson I believe that most parents wouldn’t mind there kids learning but when Pullman goes on to tackle ” dust ” and such I feel he strays from a right vs. wrong racisim issue to a far more subjective issue based on personnel belief. He of course then pits people who are against his idea in a very bad light in the story which doesn’t really lead to much of a middle ground where we can have open disscusion but more of a either your with me or you’re an idiot message.
ok. I’ve rambled on enough. have a great weekend guys.
“Carl, Don’t you always have a soundtrack going in your head?”…Of course I do, usually it is “I’m too sexy for my shirt, too sexy for my…..” 😉
I guess for me, it really depends on how the Narnia books were marketed when they came out. If Lewis was open and honest at the time about what they were, you can hardly blame him for the fact that years later people read them not knowing that they were meant to be Christian allegory. That is the blessing and curse of a group of books standing the test of time. However, if he did not say that, (and I think he was pretty open about this) or if he denied it, then there is a huge problem there.
I can, of course, agree to disagree with you guys on this point, but let me ask a question: is it Lewis’ responsibility for the way his books were marketed then or are marketed now by a publisher? I don’t know the easy answer because of course today it would all be different. If he was popular at all he would be interviewed and we would all know either what his intentions were or he would be cagey about them or whatever. It is interesting to think about.
Also, is it possible, that in the 50’s, when these were published, the standard themes of Christianity were taught more widespread in schools, in Sunday school (church was much more a part of people’s social lives even then), etc. that it would have been much more common for kids to have made a connection (depending on their age of course) between a lion that was crucified and raised from the dead and what they heard taught about Jesus in Sunday school, etc. This is all just conjecture based on huge generalizations on my part, because I am only looking back on what I know of history, etc. and what little I know about Lewis at the time. Where Lewis may have ultimately blew it is in the last book. The common complaints I hear about both Lewis’ and Pullman’s final books of their allegories is that they both get too preachy in them. Having not read either I cannot say if this is the case, but it makes sense that had Lewis not went where he did with the last book people might be more forgiving and the books might be seen as less of a religious allegory and more of an allegory that could be applied to many faiths, etc.
I think the Narnia stories stand the test of time because, other than the last book, they don’t have to be read as Christian allegory, they can be read as a story mixing a variety of mythological beliefs including the mythology (and I don’t mean that in a sacriligious way) of Christianity. Anyway, these are all interesting things to think about/talk about especially because I cannot really relate to you guys in regards to my experience with these books.
Another question I have is, regardless of the last book, do these stories have to be read and interpreted with the author’s intent. I think we’ve all seen the recent statements about Ray Bradbury that his book Fahrenheit 451 isn’t about censorship but is about television eroding the desire to read. I think we would all agree that the censorship angle is a valid interpretation of the book regardless of Bradbury’s intentions because the story has taken on a life of its own. I think Narnia has taken on a life of its own and I’m not sure childhood experiences should be poisoned by Lewis’ intentions of the novel if that isn’t the way a person believes and isn’t the way they interpreted the novels. But again, that is just my opinion. This topic slips dangerously close to areas I don’t like to discuss on the blog, especially given the ease with which conversations like this can slip into the kind of nastiness we recently experienced on another blog. And I’ve edited this comment SOOOO many times already because eventhough I know that all of you participating in this are not THOSE kind of people, I don’t want to run the risk of offending you in any way or of feeling like I am belittling your kid to adult experience with these books. It is very real and valid.
On Tolkien and war, I am sure…and the documentaries on the DVD’s address this…that the devastating effects of WWI on Tolkien affected his outlook throughout his entire life. WWI involved alot of futility, especially trench warfare, and eventhough Tolkien says his books are not allegorical, he did talk about applicability, and you can certainly apply the ideas on war, modernism, etc. in LOTR to things happening in our age. I see the films showing how even in a war that is necessary, like the battles against Sauron, the sacrifices made during that war won’t always all end in a ‘happily ever after’, ‘everything will be okay’ storyline. Frodo’s fate especially shows that the sacrifices for freedom, for good, etc. can incur a cost that has to be paid throughout one’s entire lifetime. People die, and sometimes those who live end up scarred, physically and emotionally, for life. As I said, that is a powerful message. Had Frodo just walked up and tossed the ring in, it probably still would have been a good story, but it is so much more emotionally intense the way that Tolkien wrote it. I think a person could write essays…books even…on that one scene and the psychology, etc. behind it.
You bring up some really good issues about books, age appropriateness, etc. Jeff. I don’t think that publishers do the best job always of determining which age groups books should be shelved in. I think, and Pullman’s story is a good example, that sometimes they base it solely on the age of the protagonist in the story and that is not necessarily the best way for that to be done. The newest Gaiman collection, M is for Magic, is a great example. Although, for example, Barnes and Noble website lists it at age range 12 and up, it is shelved in the 9-12 (or younger) section of the store. And I may be a prude (which, if you’ve read this blog for long you know I certainly am not), but some of the stories in the book contain sexual stuff that I just don’t think is appropriate for any 9 year old I know. There is also a few scary things that might not be appropriate for younger kids. The book should be marketed to and shelved in the teens section at least. I think the greater percentage of 9-12 yr olds, despite the fact that I know kids are smart, won’t appreciate the nuances and messages of Gaiman’s writing anyway (just my opinion).
But, and I can only speak for myself, I would be annoyed if books were labeled like CD’s, etc. with ratings, descriptions that said, “this book contains 4 swear words, a sexual reference, and thinly veiled religious propaganda”, etc. on it. I agree with what you were kind of hinting at, Jeff, that parents should be more responsible in monitoring their kids reading and in encouraging them to read. It isn’t that kids shouldn’t read controversial stuff, etc., but they should have someone, preferably their parents, to talk to about the issues afterwards. Kids shouldn’t have to get their spiritual guidance from C.S. Lewis or Philip Pullman…at best it should be a starting point for parents to discuss these issues when they feel their kids are ready to understand it. Nor should their sex education come from teeny-bopper books or (God forbid eventhough I love his work) Robert Heinlein (if they happen to read sci fi at and early age like many of us did).
Good night! What just happened?!?! How did I get us off talking religion and child-rearing on my blog?!?! We all need to stop right now and go look at those pics of Megan Fox on the Transformers post to get grounded again! 🙂
Again, back to Tolkien, I think it was you, JP, who mentioned earlier something to the effect that we cannot discover everything on our own (or at least none of us have the time to do so). You said this in relation to the DVD’s and all the info PJ and company have provided us with. I agree. I credit those who made the extras for igniting my desires to learn more about Tolkien, more about his relationship with Lewis, more about how he created his world, etc. As Gaiman is a springboard or foundation for much of the things I have discovered to read, relationships with people like Lisa Snellings-Clark and other artists, etc., Peter Jackson and the work of this amazing film crew has been the springboard for me wanting to know more about J.R.R., more about the history of language, more about those early tales that can be considered the first fantasy ever written, etc. It is amazing. And all that has led to this great, ongoing, conversation that we are having here. The spirit of the Inklings certainly lives on in us and in many others.
I’m sure we’ll talk more, but I echo Jeff’s sentiments about having a good weekend.
some deep stuff going on here! sorry i haven’t been able to reply, but it isn’t something i can just quickly reply to. my mom’s visiting me in england for the first time, so i’ve been a bit busy.
i’m just posting to let you know i’m not offended by anything i’ve read or have gone off the discussion or anything! 🙂
will reply soon!
and i know we keep saying this, but this is such a cool discussion!
carl – with narnia – i wasn’t actually thinking about the susan thing, but now that you mention it i’ve given it some thought. i agree with you. i read it and still read it as her stopping believing in narnia. it no longer became relevant to her.
and i don’t think you’re disagreeing at all 😀 i totally understand why you feel that way about the books – having been aware of what its about all along… in fact, it would be downright pretentious and in fact quite insane to start saying you felt betrayed too! haha!
wow, its great to hear how you were so moved by the ending of “return of the king”. obviously its not great that you were sad, but it moves me to know you were so moved by it. i can really relate as i was very shocked and, weirdly, quite hurt when frodo succumbed. my feelings were very ambivalent, like yours. it was confusing.
i felt like it’d been ruined. why couldn’t he be a hero? i also personally wanted him to defeat gollum and everyone to cheer him.
its the same with him being wraithlike when he returns to the shire. i felt, frodo doesn’t deserve this! it was rather depressing…! i thought to myself, why is tolkien treating his heroes so badly!? doesn’t he like them?
and yet, as you say, the story has all the more power for this realism. and one can relate to it and identify with it, which makes it that much more powerful.
i know what you mean about only noticing something important like that after watching many times. isn’t that brilliant though? i mean, its such a cool reminded that we don’t all see the same film and that our experience is collective, but also undoubtedly personal.
i find this wonderful because i still remember feeling an acute sense of dissapointment after watching superman for the first time on tv and thinking it was made for just me alone and then suddenly realising that the next day everyone at school would be talking about it and treating the film like theirs! okay, superman wasn’t made for me alone, but my experience of it is unique and thats a very cool thing. from that perspective i’m the only one that saw my version of superman and you’re the only one that saw your version of lotr!
jeff, i still can’t believe that i haven’t seen south park the film! its that gollum nonsense that makes me want to BUY it rather than watch it… curse you my inner gollum!!!
i think you’re right jeff – theres a very anti-war side to the film. and i think you hit the hammer on the nail with that point about how even when good defeats evil it still becomes tainted. that very true and i think tolkien and jackson depict it very well.
being duped is stupid. who’re you fooling? you know? here the reader is and he invests so much time and thought into your book and then you do that. i think its disrespectful and insulting. i personally have a big thing against “atonement” by ian mcewan, which many people love but which got my back up in a serious way for being a little too clever and messing with his readers.
with the dust stuff in “dark materials” i don’t think you’re being overprotective – i think of prime importance is to look after their best interests. i’ve thought about it some more and i think its just a little too manipulative. its political in fact. its such a big issue that it deals with – christianity and its beliefs – that i don’t think its fair that someone feeds it to kids through a book. same as with cs lewis.
as for the gyptians thing, i think pullman is referring to gypsies and not egyptians. they somewhat resemble gypsies in england and the canal dwellers that live as it happens very near my house. its quite weird! they are romanticised depictions of the gypsies, of course. if there is any issue relating to it, then it would be a class issue.
this is the way i’ve read it. do you see what i mean?
i can relate to racism being a big white elephant – not totally of course, ’cause i don’t know how things are there. but it certainly is a big, and yet unspoken, issue in england and south africa.
carl – you raise some interesting points regarding marketing and the climate in which the books were originally published. i’m actually stumped. i don’t have an answer. i wish i knew the answer because it might change the way i feel about them – because i agree with you, if it were transparent when they were released then it wouldn’t be a case of lewis tricking us.
either way, like i said with the whole superman thing, i like the fact that our experiences of the stories can still be individual.
you’re definitely right in that they stand the test of time because they don’t have to be read as allegory to work. they are in fact very accessable stories – universal.
this is potentially dangerous territory, you’re right, carl. i haven’t felt anywhere near offended at any stage, though. i hope i haven’t stepped on anyone’s toes with my comments. if i have then you guys must definitely tell me – its funny how its so hard to mention something like that, but i haven’t meant to and so if i have i would be very grateful if you told me! 🙂
do the books have to be interpreted in relation to the author’s intent…? now theres a hard question. i struggle so much to extricate the author’s intentions from their work! i wish i could, but i can’t and as such i am stuck with them and have to consider them. they don’t hold absolute dominion, but certainly cannot be ignored (i wish i could forget what i discovered about lewis and see narnia as i did as a child). because of this i don’t think i can effectively disagree with an author as to what his book is about. but then i don’t think anyone can definitively say what a book is about. i haven’t read “farenheit 451” but i read the article in question and i don’t think anyone can say its not about the effects of tv. its just about that as well as about censorship.
and yet, you are right, one should be able to make one’s experiences of books and films one’s own, and as i say, i do. its easier with films, but when authors say things about their novels its harder… for me it takes enormous will. but maybe i should try it.
after all, its just a philosophical stand point. i did the modernists at university and remember learning about how a book never belongs to the author, but is something which exists purely in its interpretation. nothing new, i know, but its something ive actually forgotten! i think in our current day and age where there are so many “celebrities” i think authors have perhaps been exalted above their station. i think the media makes a lot more out of authors because its easier to sell their books if they’re a person, a celebrity, you know? someone important and not just a name on a cover. why can’t it be enough that jk rowling is the person who writes harry potter? why must she be JK ROWLING!!! with flashing lights?
i think it is this culture that is perhaps making us give more importance to the author’s opinion than before.
on a lighter note, talking about this makes me think about my friend quintin. he has this amazing and admirable ability to truly shut out other people’s opinions of books and films – even the authors and director’s opinions. and i mean truly shut out. i sees these opinions as oddities almost, like an olympian god would view the opinions of mortals. he considers them if he feels like it but is always able to totally shut them out. haha! i love it.
carl, i think you are spot-on with the book stores marketing books to kids the same age as their protagonists. i think there is also a subtly sinister side to it all, in that i think the book stores don’t care at all about the appriateness of where they shelve it – they’re thinking about who they can market it to! who’ll be drawn to the books… this is particularly irresponsible ’cause kids have a strong tendency to try to act bigger than they are or be more mature or take on more mature stuff than they can. especially if there are friends who are doing it.
you made me laugh with that heinlein comment! haha! 😀
but yeah, you’re totally right. i can sort of relate because i used to be a teacher for 5 years, although its not something i feel i can talk about ’cause i’m not a parent.
i know this is serious stuff, but i really like talking about it to you. i think you guys have carefully considered opinions and are respectful of the views of others – so its a very stimulating and thought-provoking conversation.
carl, the spirit of the inklings definitely lives on with us! haha!
speaking of the history of the language etc… have you read beowulf? i have a norton edition of it and i find it absolutely amazing. i won’t go into it now, as this post is already long enough, but it is a fantastic insight to the time in which it was written. what amazes me is its sophistication, its anti-climactic qualities.
anyway, thanks for being patient. my mom’s arrival was particularly untimely because both of you wrote such cool stuff and the conversation took a very deep and meaningful turn.
i look forward to reading your next comments!
Whew! A reply is on the way soon.
okay, so i’ve watched the extended edition of the “the fellowship” and a few of the special features. as you guys know, fellowship is the one that i really, so its unsurprising that i enjoyed the extended edition with all its paraphinalia.
generally i really like the packaging of the dvds and the menus on the dvds, for the way in which they resemble a book. that leatherbound look and the paper look of the menus is very cool. clearly a lot of effort has gone into that and its very cool to see!
on to the special features. i’ve only watched 4 of them so far, but what i have watched i’ve enjoyed. i particularly liked the book-to-script bit, and as you said carl, they were all very into the book, living it, breathing it, and totally focused on bringing it to life. i liked seeing how each of the script writers had their own role and how they interacted, and how the script came together. more than in most films, they were just incredibly dedicated to the film, weren’t they? and i mean everyone – the cast, director, screenwriter, all of them.
i’m particularly impressed with the job they did on the prologue. it never actually thought about the fact that its been cobbled together by the writers – which is all the more amazing considering how good it is! it really set everything up beautifully!
the tolkien bit was cool. i liked hearing about how he was writing it and when it came out and its impact. i can’t pick out any specifics – i just enjoyed it all.
the bit about the storyboards was cool, too. i always like that kind of stuff. it was nice to see how jackson worked with his storyboard bloke.
the film itself was as good as i remembered it. i can’t believe its been so long that i watched it – but i still remember it like it was yesterday, ’cause i saw it 3 times and it had such a big impact on me. i cried again at the boromir bit – that always gets me!
one of the things i enjoyed most about seeing it again was the music. not the pretty-pretty stuff, but the dramatic and impending doom stuff! yeah! it really is superb and gets you going. i relished all my favourite bits – the opening, the bilbo gandalf bit, the bit where frodo receives the ring, balin’s tomb and the bridge of khazad-dum, and the riders – every image of the riders! but especially when they’re galloping all dramaticall in slow motion! and poor old boromir… oh, and the bit where saruman goes “HALUWHAHHAHAHRLLLLALALLWLWL HALLWLWHHHWHWHAHHHWHHWLWLL AAALLALLARHAA” and makes that storm! 🙂 my absolute favourites being when boromir dies, the prologue and when frodo discovers the ring.
you know how i feel about the boromir bit, so i won’t go into that. the frodo/gandalf/ring bit is just amazing. its hard to quantify exactly why… i think, even if you don’t know the books, it sets up the story so well! there is such wonderful anticipation before the ring reveals itself… and that fantastic moment when they throw the ring in the fire and gandalf for a second thinks its not the one ring. and then the script appears and gandalf translates it…! oh yeah! you are left in no doubt that they are in deep shit and the story has started. and this won’t be a happy singalong with the elves story, but a dark and sometimes scary one. very cool!
which are your favourite bits of the film?
i also enjoyed the extended and new scenes.
i’ve got to get back to work now, so i’ll write about them a little later.
Yesterday I finished The Children of Hurin and I just loved it. The tale is much darker than LOTR and the Hobbit but yet it still feels so right for the Middle Earth world Tolkien created. The art work by Alan Lee is amazing especially the penciled drawings. I will agree with Carl that this book isn’t for all Tolkien fans but for those of you who loved the Appendix in LOTR and/or The Similarion then this is the book for you.