I’m not sure if any of you feel it, but February seems to be rushing by. We are nearing the end of this year’s Science Fiction Experience and have reached the point where we only have half a book to read and we’ll have finished our shared journey through Isaac Asimov’s Hugo Award winning Foundation trilogy. Wow, time does fly and all that.
I was very fond of Second Foundation when I read it for the first time and am enjoying it even more this time reading it with an eye towards deeper discussion. And since that is what we are here for, let’s get right to it!
Spoilers to follow.
Before I begin to answer this week’s questions, please allow me to repeat a theme I have touched on in previous discussions: memory. In re-reading books I find it puzzling the things I remember so clearly and the things I forget. I have several very clear memories of the parts we will be reading for next week’s discussion which more prominently feature Arkady Darell. But the first section of this book was nearly a complete blank for me. It was as if I had never read it before. Which in some ways was quite fun, but in others leaves me perplexed regarding the effectiveness of my little gray cells. At any rate, the section of this book that dealt with The Mule was a real revelation to me.
1. How have your perceptions of the Mule and his form of governing grown or changed, or not, after spending more time with him in this novel?
I believe I had some sympathy for him when all was said and done in Foundation and Empire, and yet I also mentioned here and on other sites that the Mule’s form of mind-control certainly was not my idea of benevolent leadership. I was surprised to find how quickly I turned completely against him as this chapter of his story unfolded. Other than his actions towards Bayta, which could be regarded as being quite selfish in their own right, I saw him as every bit the monster I imagined him to be as Asimov shows his singular obsession for finding and destroying the Second Foundation and his disaffected, blaze attitude about what he had done to usurp control of the galaxy. I found myself most strongly identifying with Pritcher in this section of the story, agonizing with him as he gladly did the Mule’s bidding and yet knowing there was an intelligent, unique individual down deep screaming to get out. His murderous rage when released from the Mule’s grasp was so easy to relate to because I cannot imagine feeling anything but vicious madness if you were manipulated in such a way for so many years.
It suppose it could be argued that the Emperor, the members of the Foundation, and the Mule exhibited manipulative, repressive control over their subjects in various ways, but I cannot help but see the Mule’s as more deliberate and more destructive. One of our greatest gifts is that of free will, and we all know how difficult it can be to constrain ourselves against the useful rules in our society that impinge upon our concept of free will. Imagine what that would be like living under the Mule.
2. Having finally gotten a glimpse into the mysterious Second Foundation, what are your feelings/thoughts about this group and their methods (as revealed thus far)
I have written many times during the reading of these three novels how much I am noticing this time through that even the “good guys” are morally ambiguous and are not above resorting to unethical, manipulative actions in order to keep their form of government going. As the story is about Seldon and his Foundation, it is hard not to cheer for that side. And yet we see so many Mule-like behaviors coming from the members of the Second Foundation that at this point you almost can’t help feeling a little scared of that type of governance as well.
I think it is fun that we are finally getting to see this mysterious “Second Foundation” that has been referenced so many times and it certainly seems much different than the Foundation we witnessed grown and then collapse in previous chapters. If one allies themselves with the Second Foundation, then they come off as a pretty fascinating and powerful collective. If one doesn’t they can be seen as a frightening and formidable enemy.
3. Has your understanding of the Seldon Plan changed at all with the revelations about the plan and the Second Foundationers near the end of this first part of our reading? Looking back does it alter any ideas you had about Seldon and his predictions?
I’m not sure I am necessarily “understanding” it more, but I do like how our exposure to more of the inner workings is growing as we eavesdrop in on the communication of members of the Second Foundation. There were some really interesting revelations here, particularly with the idea that this Second Foundation was created in secret and set to the task of determining probabilities and dealing with them appropriately in order to keep Seldon’s Plan on course. I also find it an interesting development that there is such a big probability of total failure because of what the Mule did and because for all their planning the Second Foundation members couldn’t foresee the devastation that could be caused by a single, extraordinary individual.
As I read I have a few curious thoughts and wondered if anyone else’s mind when in these directions. I am very curious of your thoughts on these:
a) Where Seldon’s crisis visit messages pre-recorded before his death or was this just some program that Second Foundationers used to keep things on the course that they had predcited?
and
b) Were the previous individuals we saw who influenced events–Hardin, Mallow, etc. actually just exceptionally brilliant individuals or were they people whose minds were tampered with by Second Foundationers or were they actually members of the Second Foundation themselves, seeded into the population to guide things on a pre-determined course.
I don’t know that I have a definite answer for either, but it sure led me to some interesting speculation and what I’ve seen thus far and how I interpreted what I’ve seen.
4. A simple one: How did you feel the first part of Second Foundation held up in comparison to the sections we’ve previously read?
I actually enjoyed it quite a bit and felt like it fairly flew by. Bail Channis was an interesting character and I liked it when he and Pritcher got paired up together. Having a free-minded man paired with one of the Mule’s controlled men made for a really interesting contrast. And the revelations about the Second Foundation kept me engaged while setting my my to wondering about what might be revealed in the next section of the book.
5. It is perhaps not surprising that Asimov’s second important female character in the trilogy would be a direct descendent of the first. What do you think of young Arcadia “Arkady” Darell?
I am so very fond of Arkady, and I hope that by the end of the book everyone else is as well. I need to do a little research because on one hand she certainly seems like a typical teenager, but on the other we are given the idea that 14 is the age one transitions into adulthood, on some level. I’m wondering if the years are like Heinlein’s in books like Podkayne of Mars where the girl is the equivalent of having “come of age” at age 14 because the years are much longer than Earth standard years.
I thought her recording machine was fun and certainly on some levels compares with the technology that developed over the years since Asimov wrote this novel. I really enjoyed her interactions with the young (by my standards) man who showed up at her window to meet her father. I liked their repartee. Its going to be a good time following Arkady around again while being reminded to the adventures she is about to go on.
I’ll stop there and save more for our discussions. Whenever you get a chance to get your post up, please link below to your discussion.
I hope you are feeling better Carl. I won’t be able to get my answers up until tomorrow. I’m looking forward to the discussions! I hope you are enjoying your 3 day weekend (do you have today off?)
Pretty much back to normal. Still a few problems with one ear but overall feel great. Good and rested. I’ll check out your answers tomorrow!
Good to hear that you are feeling better! I hate being sick and ear pain is no fun at all.
I was amazed by how quickly my fondness for the Mule changed in this book. I really started to hate him and his methods. Then when I realized that the Second Foundationers also used a form of mind control I hated them instantly. I’m curious if this hatred will lesson at all. During the last discussions I think it was you who kept writing that you really didn’t like the Mule and his mind control and I was like well he wasn’t that bad. I finally realized that he was that bad. I’m a slow learner
Arkady is a fun character. I loved her treatment of the “young” man. I also considered him young in my mind when I was reading the novel. As I get older, my definition of young changes. When I see in the news that someone in their 60s or 70s has died, my first thought is, wow so young. I remember when I thought 20 was old.
I loved at the end when the young man told the father that he felt sorry for any man who would marry Arkady. She had spunk that’s for sure.
I must say I’m really enjoying being introduced to this book through someone elses eyes. Oh, and I know what you mean about remembering some things about a book so clearly and completely forgetting about others…so weird. I find it’s a lot of fun though…I like surprises and I also love getting a new take on a story after many years.
I like the surprises as well. It actually is part of the charm of re-reading books you fall in love with as there are parts that are fresh and new each time you come back to them.
Hi
I know what you mean about February flying by (I feel like I’ve only just got over Christmas). I find that with my memory, and where books are concerned, some times I simply remember that I really like the book, and I can remember a basic summary but I won’t remember all the finer detail! And, when I particularly like a book I think I tend to over-egg it in my own mind – so much so that if I read it again I would no doubt be disappointed (although I wasn’t let down by LOTR).
That’s a really good point about whether Hardin and Mallow and others who intervened with keeping the prophecy had had their minds tampered with – the thought hadn’t occured to me! Now I’ll have to mull on that!
I like Arkady – she’s very precocious isn’t she! I love the way she has everything figured out in advance of everyone else.
Lynn
The whole mind tampering thing just popped into my own mind…wait, maybe I was tampered with? Hmmm….
It is probably just me reading too many possibilities into the story, but it was fascinating to look back on the previous stories with this new information in mind.
Arkady is precocious and just so much fun. I’m really happy we get to spend more time with her this week.
Yes, yes! I’m wondering too now about Hardin’s and Mallow’s actions and if they were influenced by the Second Foundation.
I hadn’t thought that about Seldon’s visits though; whether they were prerecorded or something the Second Foundation is controlling. I think they may be prerecorded but the Second Foundation is choosing when to play them.
I think they were prerecorded as well. The story is so much more interesting that way. But it was yet another thing that popped into my mind when thinking about how the Second Foundationers might be more involved in the past than we were previously aware of.
This is an interesting thought. I’ll really have to think about this. We really don’t know how involved they were, but they knew all about the Mule and let him find them sorta.
I’ll be around to people’s blogs tomorrow… today has just flown by!
So far, I think that this was my favorite part of the trilogy. I hadn’t even considered that people like Mallow could have been Second Foundationers, but at the same time, the Second Foundation would have had to have spies in the first Foundation in order to know what was going on and whether Seldon’s plan was coming to fruition. I think that the Seldon recordings were real though, mostly because of the last one in Foundation and Empire where we realized that the Mule wasn’t what was supposed to happen. Then again, based on the Second Foundation’s methods, I wouldn’t put it past them… So much to think about!
Same here. We did a lot of family stuff today and I didn’t have a lot of time to spend online, so I’ll be carrying on the conversations over on your sites tomorrow and beyond.
I think the Seldon recordings were likely real especially because early on his predictions were probably less divergent than they became as time went on and a bunch of seen, and then later unforeseen, possibilities came into play.
I do have to think the people of the Second Foundation had spies in the Foundation. I cannot imagine them sitting back and not knowing what was going on. Heck, Hardin and Mallow could have been members of the Second Foundation.
I love speculating about this stuff, even when I am way off base.
That would be fun to learn that Hardin and Mallow were spies…I like this thinking!
I hear you on the memory thing. I usual remember little, unimportant details, and big ideas. But everything in between is just a haze.
I felt much the same way about The Mule and his power. I like that Asimov didn’t make his power some kind of complete brainwashing, because that awareness that Pritcher had of what had been done to him made the effect that much more intriguing.
As far as the Second Foundation goes, I was wary of their Mule-like powers also, but they seem so far to at least value free will to a point.
The questions you brought up had not even occurred to me. Very interesting ideas! I wonder if they are explored more in the Foundation books outside of the trilogy.
It is amazing how much trivial information is readily available for my recall but how I can forget whole huge story lines in books and films sometimes. LOL!
Pritcher’s awareness was indeed much more intriguing, you are right on about that. It was actually agonizing as a reader to imagine what he must have been going through and you can certainly empathize with his unleashed madness when that control is finally broken.
They do, but it is very interesting to take a step back and evaluate my reactions to the Second Foundation folks when I know they are supposed to be the “good guys” and their methods are anything but good.
I haven’t read any of the novels but these three, but I do intend to move on with Foundation’s Edge at some point as I’ve had that book on my shelf for years.
You know, speaking of memory loss, when I went on to read the second half of our reading material, I realized I had completely forgotten anything I read in the first two chapters of Part 2. I think the Second Foundation erased my memory to make me hope they were going to be okay! After rereading I realized that free will really isn’t a part of their game plan, darn it.